Технология настройки при помощи медиатора заключается в том, что поочерёдно, щипком (медиатором) извлекается настраиваемый звук, и сличается с уже настроенным (или с 2-мя в хорах). Это принципиально отличается от современных методов темперации фортепиано, когда настраивается один звук, два других при этом заглушены специальными резиновыми приспособлениями. При этом слышится только один звук и при настройке приходится иногда возвращаться и производить подстройку. Подобный метод очень эффективен для хоров, так как позволяет более точно находить настраиваемый звук и не делать излишних движений ключом, сберегая ресурс посадочного места колка фортепиано. Одним из преимуществ данного метода является то, что в процессе темперации настройщик имеет возможность использовать гармонический слух. К основному настраиваемому звуку настройщик способен «выщипыванием» добавлять неограниченный спектр звучащих одновременно звуков, то есть может слышать интервально и аккордово. Медиатор насажен на бечёвку, чтобы во время процесса случайно не уронить его между клавиш.  В статье приводится обсуждение преимуществ и недостатков данной методики на международном форуме настройщиков-музыкальных техников. 

 Maximillyan
Loc: KZ

Tuning a piano with mediator
I use when tuning of piano with mediator. Such way allows to search for the sounds of the necessary height without shim and laying of the tape. I listen harmonic assonance and intervals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gQ-ZInLsF4

 

Johnkie
I take "mediator" to mean "plectrum", and "shim and laying of tape" to mean " using a muting strip" ?

Having watched this video I am at a total loss as to why such people are encouraged by others on this site. This guy cannot tune, and more importantly .... is in serious danger of snapping wrestpins the way he flagpoles them with his T bar socket set "tuning hammer" !
It is exactly this sort of person that gets the trade a bad name, and why his sort should not be able to post on a forum titled " tuner / technicians".
It would be much more acceptable if this guy took heed of criticism and demonstrated a desire to learn, rather than being encouraged to carry on with his vandalism. Ten out of ten for his keeness ... but nought out of ten for skill !


UnrightTooner
Yes, it is painful to watch.
Still, only his cutomers are the rightful judges of his services.

 

Loren D

I don't see how the string segments can be properly rendered and set by lightly plucking instead of striking.
Quote:
Still, only his cutomers are the rightful judges of his services.
Why, Jeff? The video is pretty clear.

UnrightTooner
Loren:
Call it the evolution concept. If no one wanted his services, this would not be occurring.

 

Loren D
We have no idea how many want his services. *edit* Still though, I don't see how that translates into watching a video and not being able to make a judgement about what you see.


UnrightTooner
Loren:
I said it was painful to me, but my opinion does not matter.
Maybe this is an odd concept only used by oddballs... ?

 

Dan Casdorph
Is he bending the pins to tune, or is there a rotary component I'm missing?

 

Johnkie
With the greatest respect Jeff, you say that, - Quote "Still, only his cutomers are the rightful judges of his services."
Fellow tuner technicians are the ones that should be expected to judge the practises of such people posing as professionals. The customer trusts that the workman knows what he is doing.

 

Zeno Wood
Maximillyan -
Have you tried a more traditional tuning lever? I worry that you will injure your wrist using your technique. I think that if I used your tuning tool I would suffer tendonitis very soon. I also wonder how stable your unisons are with your technique.
Nice to hear from you,
Zeno

 

UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
With the greatest respect Jeff, you say that, - Quote "Still, only his cutomers are the rightful judges of his services."
Fellow tuner technicians are the ones that should be expected to judge the practises of such people posing as professionals. The customer trusts that the workman knows what he is doing.

That can lead to cronyism, and is not a free market idea.
I believe that the cream will always float to the top. In Max’s area he may very well be the cream!

 

Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

only his cutomers are the rightful judges of his services.

I nobody does not obtrude its method of the tuning. However consider that it exists to be. I tuning listen all sounds in accord interpretation. Carefully reconciling pin's motion . I don't carefree resource pin and pinblock. Try and judge

 

Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Dan Casdorph

or is there a rotary component I'm missing?

"Ловкость рук и никакого мошенничества"
Sleight of hand and no focuses

 

rysowers
Originally Posted By: Zeno Wood

Maximillyan -
Have you tried a more traditional tuning lever? I worry that you will injure your wrist using your technique. I think that if I used your tuning tool I would suffer tendonitis very soon. I also wonder how stable your unisons are with your technique.
Nice to hear from you,
Zeno

Zeno, you are such a good guy! Others on this forum could take a lesson from you...

 

rxd
Perhaps 'Borat' is not far from the truth.
In the country of the blind, the one eyed man is King.
This is a free international forum and I hope it remains so but can we ban the whiners who complain about other posters?
Is it, perhaps, part of our function to be helpful to our brethren who have less access to what we so glibly take for granted.
Have we considered that the proper equipment is not readily available to Max.
There's an adage, if I am not part of the cure, then I'm part of the problem.
Sermon over. Go in peace to love and serve whomever you like but please, a little human decency.
Max. PM me your postal address and I will send to you a tuning lever and some other things that you may find useful.

 

UnrightTooner
If I whine enough to get the whiners banned, will I be banned too? (Don't mind me. I went to my first foot washing yesterday.)

 

rxd
I haven't ever heard you whine on this forum, Jeff, you'r far too well bred.
I read too quickly and thought you said you went first footing. Now, there's a thought, will the next wave of technology include getting cyberdrunk together?
Anyway, now that I read it properly, when are you getting the other one washed?.

 

Johnkie
There's no need to wish for those that disagree with the plainly ridiculous working methods sometimes posted on this forum to be banned .... I know of a good many that have already left of their own accord!
To all those who have attained skill and expertise, I salute you - to those who haven't ... You win ... I'm not wasting anymore time on you. Have a good day y'all.

 

rxd  
Originally Posted By: Johnkie

There's no need to wish for those that disagree with the plainly ridiculous working methods sometimes posted on this forum to be banned .... I know of a good many that have already left of their own accord!
To all those who have attained skill and expertise, I salute you - to those who haven't ... You win ... I'm not wasting anymore time on you. Have a good day y'all.

C'mon, Johnkie, I know you're still out there. Your contribution is far too valuable,
You sparked of the whole question of shall we condemn them or shall we help them?
For me to sermonise on a free society, then add my own petty restrictions was an attempt at injecting some humour as Jeff plainly noticed.
Praps I came across a bit parsimonious but I really believe what I said. Let's not pull up the ladder by which we all ascended.

 

rysowers
Johnkie,
I hear they are in need of good technicians in Kazakhstan. This might be your big chance! Grab your tools and a Google translator, and you'll clean up!

 

accordeur
Max, you should really consider rxd's offer to send you a tuning hammer!!!

Jean Poulin

 

Loren D
You're absolutely right. It's better to allow someone to work on valuable instruments using substandard tools and methods rather than help someone improve by stating what's wrong. And silly me, I forgot my attendance trophy!

 

Loren D

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: Johnkie

With the greatest respect Jeff, you say that, - Quote "Still, only his cutomers are the rightful judges of his services."
Fellow tuner technicians are the ones that should be expected to judge the practises of such people posing as professionals. The customer trusts that the workman knows what he is doing.

That can lead to cronyism, and is not a free market idea.
I believe that the cream will always float to the top. In Max’s area he may very well be the cream!

In other words, put the fellow tech's interest ahead of the piano owning public's. That would be cronyism.

 

rxd
Originally Posted By: accordeur

Max, you should really consider rxd's offer to send you a tuning hammer!!!

Please do, Max. I am surrounded here by students and professors who read cyrilics and there must be some who understand your regional variation.

 

Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: accordeur

Max, you should really consider rxd's offer to send you a tuning hammer!!!

Уважаемые господа фортепианные техники, до слёз тронут Вашей заботой и вниманием. То, что касается настроечных ключей и специального оборудования я к сожалению не имею ресурса оплатить расходы на их приобретение + почтовые расходы. Сегодня я выясню как правильно заполнить на английском языке почтовое отправление. Приму в дар настроечный профессиональный ключ, если возможно.
Dear Sirs piano technique, moved to tears by your care and attention. What concerns the tuning hammer and special equipment, I unfortunately do not have the resources to pay the costs for their purchase + postage. Today I'll find out how to fill in the English language mailing. I will accept the gift of pro tuning hammer
IN GOD WE TRUST

 

rxd
Originally Posted By: Dan Casdorph

Is he bending the pins to tune, or is there a rotary component I'm missing?

Yes, there is a rotary component, and he is also bending the pins to tune. Many of us have seen skilful tuners get that last 2 cents by deliberately 'lifting' the pin. I learned this from a Japanese Master Tech years ago. I spent a week with him, both of us tuning our respective employers' pianos for a piano competition. Of course you have to know precicely where the pin is from a combined torque and flagpole standpoint and therein lies the skill. That, plus experience, years of it. It looks like Max has discovered this by himself. I believe there is hope.
We can always learn something. Did you notice his wedges fastened to a string and hung around his neck??? this man does not lack experience. Please don't start doing this yourselves or I will have to buy my own wedges instead of relying on treasure trove.
How much would it cost us to send him to Moscow or somewhere for a week's intensive training?? I believe he's the kind of person who only needs to see it done properly once.
As Jeff said, he's probably all they've got where he lives.

pianolive

Send me a note with your adress through my forum profile, and I will send you a pro tuninghammer. We have got several in the workshop and I will be happy to give you one.

 

pianolive

rxd,
I have learned tuning in exactly the same way. It is actually a very precise work with the tuninghammer and it lets you "level out" the different tensions in the string without hitting the key with a hard blow. Good for your ears and good for the voicing of the hammer.

 

pianosxxi
Sometime ago, in the 80's, one technician asked me if he can set a temperament by 1/2 steps. My answer to him was, if it sounds great why not, go ahead and do it. At that time, I knew technician that had extraordinary ability, he was able to tune a piano without any muters. He was a concert tuner in Moscow who tuned pianos for various classical performances.
Maximillian, in his video, show another approach to how a piano can be tuned. I appreciate him taking his time to share the knowledge and unique ability and various techniques he use during piano tuning process.
Few may not understand his method, but from their response I can also observe and say that they have no idea what they're doing themselves. Instead of negative comments, I would rather see a video recording to how they approach piano tuning (with commentaries). It will be interesting to compare.


UnrightTooner
Loren:
Are you suggesting that we somehow protect Max's customers from themselves?

 

Loren D

Originally Posted By: pianosxxi

Sometime ago, in the 80's, one technician asked me if he can set a temperament by 1/2 steps. My answer to him was, if it sounds great why not, go ahead and do it. At that time, I knew technician that had extraordinary ability, he was able to tune a piano without any muters. He was a concert tuner in Moscow who tuned pianos for various classical performances.

No mutes at all? Not even when tuning the initial string of a unison?
Quote:Maximillian, in his video, show another approach to how a piano can be tuned. I appreciate him taking his time to share the knowledge and unique ability and various techniques he use during piano tuning process.
It appears he is using a wrench that affords no leverage at all to bend/twist a tuning pin rather than turn it. Maybe you can tell us why you appreciate that? Is trying to instruct him on better techniques somehow wrong, you're saying?
Quote:Few may not understand his method, but from their response I can also observe and say that they have no idea what they're doing themselves. Instead of negative comments, I would rather see a video recording to how they approach piano tuning (with commentaries). It will be interesting to compare.
Well there you have it! Those who use correct tools and pin setting techniques have no idea what they're doing themselves. I guess that settles it.

jayr
Unfortunately he might be the only tuner in the area and any that have to come from a long way charge mileage.
I only watched about 20 seconds and had to stop it.
Jay's Piano Tuning Service

 

rxd
While I cannot answer for pianoxxi, what he seems to me to be saying is that there are people on this forum who don't know the half of it.
These people make themselves known by their gratuitous judgements. (anybody, when making a judgement of anybody else says more about themselves that the person they think they are judging), think about it!!. Look at the last few judgemental statements on this thread, they are mainly telling us of their lack of experience, in other words, what they don't know, or what they mistakenly think is the only way..
Alfred Howe wrote a book, Scientific Piano Tuning and Servicing, an American publication, I believe, from the '30's. In it, he devoted a couple of pages to tuning without wedges.
There is a famous woodcut from the 1840's of a diminutive but portly piano tuner in a frock coat reaching up to tune a very tall upright. We've all seen it, those of us that take an interest in our history. I can't find it on the web, just now but I'll look for it. I'm sure most of you know the one I mean, it's in a lot of books. In this woodcut, he is tuning with a T-hammer and I don't see any wedges, do you?
I can tune without wedges, I practiced it when I read it in Howes' book, I rarely use it today, just the odd unison correction and such.
Its just a matter of following the string that's moving in pitch. Takes practice, though, and is a good excercise. Another excercise is to sound the note a half step (or whole step) below the unison or octave you are tuning simultaneously with the note you are tuning. You will be surprised how much more clearly You can fine tune an unison or octave with this other sound going on.
One of my teachers, a well respected concert tuner in London, told me he was taught to tune with a T hammer.
When I was a professional musician, the tuner at most of the studios and theatres I worked in regularly tuned with a T-hammer, uprights and grands, and used only single wedges between the unisons. He did a solid job, those pianos got hammered for hours on end and stayed in tune. This was in the 1960's. I only saw him use a lever once this was on a small new upright that was known for it's tight pins
So far I haven't heard Max tune what we are pleased to call a good unison. That doesn't mean he can't, or doesnt care to, (I've known 2 tuners, both in major cities, who deliberately tune loose unisons and are never short of work. Do they know something I don't? they are not stupid people.
Max is tuning with something that behaves like a T-hammer but with the advantage of added leverage should it be needed
I saw a rotational movement in the first tuning manipulation of his tool and, when he let go, the shaft did not spring back up as it would have done had he flagpoled excessively. It did later in the video, though.
We are taught to support the lever with our thumb to prevent flagpoling. This is assuming that the flagpole set of the pin is optimal or 'correct'- it may not be. We are taught to ignore the flagpoling tendency of the pin. I say that we ignore anything at our peril. Many tuners bang on the keys brutally in tuning, this is totally unnecessary if the flagpole tendency is taken into account and used to your advantage. It's going to flagpole somewhat anyway, none of us is so good that it doesn't., at least, I haven't seen any.
I have had the privelige of working with both types of tuner and many that manipulate the lever in such a way that encompasses both methods., (I'm talking of tuners constantly involved in concert work). Neither way is 'Better' but give me the one less wearing on the ears and body in general.
None of this is a question of good/bad, black/white, it's just merely different.
I have in my posession 2 pianos that are 100 years old. I know they have been subject to this lifting technique and T hammer technique I spoke of in my last posting. Both pin blocks are no different that any other piano that age. Very nice to tune, whichever method I use.
Do you give yourself a choice of many different approaches to tuning, -You don't know the half of it.
Thanks, pianosxxi and you guys who came out of the woodwork on this subject.
There's more.

 

rxd
Oh, I tried to tune a piano in halfsteps years ago purely by melodic interval, I failed miserably.
I'm going to try it again, though, just in the temperament octave. Who knows what I've developed in the last 50 years.
I tune melodically by halfsteps in the high treble on a pitch raise, I do it first, before the middle treble so theres less flattening by tuning the high treble in sequence. I have a tendency to go sharp, but on a pitch raise, that's a good thing.
Ever tried it?--You don't kno.............

 

UnrightTooner
RXD:
Yes, I agree. Those that think they know it all should listen to us that really do!

 

rxd

Jeff.
I only know what I know.
What I don't know, I can't be responsible for. Startng with my astonishing lack of ability to put them little emoticons on my posts.

 

UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: rxd

Jeff.
I only know what I know.
What I don't know, I can't be responsible for. Startng with my astonishing lack of ability to put them little emoticons on my posts.

That's right. And "people on this forum who don't know the half of it" can't be responsible for what they don't know either.
The emoticons are simple. Click on "Switch to Full Reply Screen" and then the smiley face. There will be a selection to choose from. The ones you use more often will be easy to remember. Like if you type : and right after ) you get

 

rxd
My point exactly.
I'm familiar with them just can't get the yellow fancy ones to work on an iPhone. Oh. I get it. It doesn' t convert to the yellow one till I go to preview post.
Thanks. Jeff. Something else for me to play with while I'm away from home.

 

Loren D
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Loren:
Are you suggesting that we somehow protect Max's customers from themselves?

Jeff, my post is pretty easy to read; you know what I'm saying.

 

pianosxxi
Originally Posted By: Loren D

Those who use correct tools and pin setting techniques have no idea what they're doing themselves. I guess that settles it.

With this in mind, one should understand the following:
The meaning of correct tools can at times be questionable. Especially when using the L shape tool, that create much more unnecessary bendings on the pin and pinblock than T shape.
If techs cannot explain why their technique is better or give an explanation why Max's technique is wrong. I have to come to one conclusion, they are likely have know idea what they are doing themselves.
Originally Posted By: Loren D
It appears he is using a wrench that affords no leverage at all to bend/twist a tuning pin rather than turn it. Maybe you can tell us why you appreciate that? Is trying to instruct him on better techniques somehow wrong, you're saying?
Unfortunately, this statement is incorrect. The T shape tuning hammer (wrench) gives you leverage and can bend and twist tuning pins, whatever you want and in any motion under precise control.
Nothing is wrong with sharing your special techniques to fellow piano technicians.

Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: pianosxxi
[quote=Loren D]Unfortunately, this statement is incorrect. The T shape tuning hammer (wrench) gives you leverage and can bend and twist tuning pins, whatever you want and in any motion under precise control.
Nothing is wrong with sharing your special techniques to fellow piano technicians.
Уважаемый Евгений, тронут до слёз развернувшейся полемикой вокруг темы: «Настройка с помощью медиатора». Не скрою, что не ожидал от нашего международного форума подобных широких, а самое главное конструктивных моментов обсуждения вопроса. Огромное спасибо всем техника, давшим лестные оценки в мой адрес. Позволю Евгений, Вас просить, в очередной раз протянуть руку помощи с просьбой перевода моих строк, чтобы была понятна моя позиция. Только Вы, как практик, способны донести до мировой общественности мои чаяния и личные переживания. Начну с лирической ноты, чтобы люди могли понять, почему Максим делает «всё шиворот-навыворот». Я начал пользоваться интернетом сравнительно недавно, менее 2 лет тому назад по причине моей бедности. Когда я увидел клипы в сети, как некоторые настройщики настраивают, не скрою, был удивлён и даже обескуражен, теми методами и подходами, которые они применяют в вопросах темперации и их техникой работы с ключом. Это вовсе не значит, что они это делают неправильно, и только я знаю, «как надо настраивать пианино». Меня удивила техника работы ключом, а именно, очень резкие и непродуманные вращения, ведущие к завышению требуемого тона, а затем отпускания. Вы, наверное, Евгений понимаете о чём я? Думаю Вам как практику настройщику, работавшему в Союзе, хорошо известно, что колки в советских инструментах очень часто установлены в пробке вербильбанка или окошке посадочного места пробки (панцирный вид рамы) не по центру. И, подобная практика не допустима. Движения при настройке «Беларуси» или «Токкаты» сродни работы сапёра на минном поле. Здесь каждое движение необходимо сначала проанализировать с точки зрения физики и философии врача «не навреди», иначе не будет ни то, что строя, а даже его приблизительного подобия, а уж потом плавно вести давление всей руки, игнорируя вороток ключа, подключая сжатый кулак в основание ключа. Я иногда, простите за некоторую нескромность, «вытягиваю с того Света», очередную советскую модель пианино и искренне вместе с клиентом радуюсь за инструмент на котором был поставлен «крест». Как я пришёл к тому, что работаю самодельными, но очень качественными ключами, с точки зрения физики? Вновь должен сделать лирическое отступление. Когда я был очень юный и обучался в Уральском Государственном музыкальном училище, по программе необходимо было изучать предмет «общее фортепиано», а я народник (баянист), то родители пожертвовали в то, неспокойное время перестройки сумму денег, чтобы я мог приобрести себе подержанную « Украину» 1967г. Инструмент мне настроил в то время неплохой настройщик в нашем городе, но как Вы понимаете он менее чем через год расстроился, и я вынужден был как то выходить из сложившейся ситуации. Денег на настройку на было, а зачёты по гармонии и теории музыки, а также фортепиано нужно было сдавать. Отец по большому блату изготовил мне конусный четырёхгранный ключ, и я стал практиковать на собственном пианино, абсолютно не зная основ настройки и темперации. Сейчас мне приятно и трепетно вспоминать те первые, но всё же, осмысленные шаги. Читая и поглощая в безмерных количествах литературу по музыкальной теории, я уяснил для себя, что есть звук и как его можно делить. Ни будь этой практики, думаю, что я никогда бы не понял и не смог бы настраивать инструменты. Надо так же отметить, что по причине моей провинциальности, я даже и не подозревал, что классический настроечный ключ совсем другой. Итак, постепенно запасаясь теоретическим и практическим багажом знания, я, практикуя на своей «Украине», неожиданно стал получать заказы. Главным откровением для меня стали слова одного преподавателя, имеющего за плечами Ленинградскую консерваторию, когда он отметил, что такой правильной и грамотной темперации он даже не смог бы себе вообразить на советском пианино. Это я потом уже для себя выяснил, что он имел ввиду, говоря, и посмеиваясь, что « Бах был бы рад».
Теперь по существу вопроса я должен заявить следующее,
никому и никаким образом не навязываю своего «неправильного метода настройки», потому, что как было сказано раньше «всё моё творчество есть продукт вынужденных обстоятельств», однако я считаю, что подобный метод имеет место быть и вот почему:
1. Одно из принципиальных преимуществ работы 4х гранным конусным ключом это очень трудное его вращение и подгонка нужного тона, таким образом, присутствует особая концентрация слуха настройщика и музыкального анализа искомого звука. В противном случае настройщик быстро утомится и не настроит правильных нот даже в хорах
2. При работе ключом мы невольно сохраняем ресурс посадочного места колка. Состояние колкового механизма – это « тело и душа фортепиано». Чем меньше перемещается колок в вербильбанке, тем больше остаточный ресурс пианино, и как следствие продолжительнее с точки зрения темперации «правильный звук». Я заметил, что настроенный мной инструмент, особенно импортного производства, до 5-7 лет не расстраивается!
3. Колки «не зализываются». Восьмигранный ключ, хотим мы это принимать или нет, всё равно, раз за разом срабатывает грани колка. А это ущерб колку.
4. Когда я работаю без заглушек, то без всяких условностей и самое главное, не отвлекаясь на перемещение искомых интервалов всего инструмента способен, экономя время и ресурс колка, слышать ВЕСЬ спектр гармонии и интервалики, как в отдельных секторах, так и в аккордовом изложении и подобно русскому гусляру.
5. Единственное и принципиальное неудобство, данного метода, его продолжительность. А, именно я настраиваю обычно более 5 часов. Однако неудобства настройщика не в счёт.
С уважением, ко всем участникам форума, Максим
In GOD WE TRuST

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: Bojan Babic

[quote=Johnkie]
like the revolutionary discover of the cardboard shims.

You may laugh and cry simultaneously, but truth in that that idea with paperboard not new, but single correct. Shim cardboard provides 100% stability pin in pinblook

 

UnrightTooner

Thinking about the extension on Max’s tool, I am reminded of the extension used for tuning the high treble on grands so that the hammer clears the case. There isn’t that much difference. Flagpoling is flagpoling. But the direction of the flagpoling can work for or against you. And even though a T-handle can remove all flagpoling, it does nothing for compensating for the spring from twisting the pin. However, selective flagpoling can compensate for the spring from twisting the pin. Yes, there is the residual torque and the rendering of the string to deal with also. But there is a specific point I want to make.
Although Max’s technique is painful for me to watch, it is still an opportunity to observe the physics involved. OK, the pin is being flagpoled an enormous amount in the flat direction. But at the same time the spring in the pin is in the sharp direction as is the residual torque and the string rendering. If there is enough bearing friction, it may not be necessary to ease the pin back CCW for stability. Unfortunately, I don’t think Max quite has things balanced that well.
Going back to the high treble on grands, I sometimes find one where putting the hammer at around 10 o’clock in the left hand works well. This is a similar position as Max’s, but without the extension which makes a huge difference.

 

Loren D
There is no right way or wrong way of doing things, I guess. Anyone can use any methods, correct or not; any tools, correct or not. Results can be bad or good; it's all good.

Quote:

Unfortunately, this statement is incorrect. The T shape tuning hammer (wrench) gives you leverage and can bend and twist tuning pins, whatever you want and in any motion under precise control.
Nothing is wrong with sharing your special techniques to fellow piano technicians.

No, the statement is correct; let me rephrase it to make it clearer. The T lever does not give enough leverage to actually turn the pin, resulting in twisting and bending rather than turning. That leads to unstable tunings.
There is] nothing wrong with sharing your techniques, but promoting and supporting them if the techniques are wrong and can damage a piano, or if they lead to poor results is simply wrong. That may not be politically incorrect, but truth seldom is.
There seems to be an underlying sentiment with some here that whatever methods one uses are ok. It went so far as the Kawai thread, where a tech muscled plate bolts so hard that he sheared the heads off them, and some thing there's nothing wrong with the tech and everything wrong with the piano!
If advocating the use of proper tools and methods makes me the bad guy, so be it. New, innovative methods are one thing; makeshift methods and tools are quite another.

 

UnrightTooner
Are you suggesting that we somehow protect Max's customers from themselves?

Jeff, my post is pretty easy to read; you know what I'm saying.

Yes I do know what you are saying, but I don't think you do. Believe it or not, you are saying the customer is not always right. That is the point I am trying to make. That attitude is a good way to not have a customer.

 

Loren D

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: Loren D

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Loren:
Are you suggesting that we somehow protect Max's customers from themselves?

Jeff, my post is pretty easy to read; you know what I'm saying.

Yes I do know what you are saying, but I don't think you do. Believe it or not, you are saying the customer is not always right. That is the point I am trying to make. That attitude is a good way to not have a customer.

Nope, you don't understand at all. In the interest of avoiding "cronyism," (as though somehow educating someone on proper techniques is that), you would allow someone who does substandard work to be out vandalizing pianos. Are you implying that a customer is "right" when he/she, not knowing better, calls a quack for service? Because if you are, that's actually laughable.
This is not the first time you attempt to twist things, Jeff, and both you and I know it won't be the last. Protecting an incompetent tech over the people whose pianos he damages is the very cronyism you claim to be against. Attempting to frame that as "protecting customers from themselves" or as the customer "not always being right" is both weak and funny at the same time.

 

UnrightTooner
Loren:
Let's say Max was in the next town over from you. How would you handle the situation?

Loren D
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Loren:
Let's say Max was in the next town over from you. How would you handle the situation?

It's not clear?

 

UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: Loren D

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Loren:
Let's say Max was in the next town over from you. How would you handle the situation?

It's not clear?

Why are you answering a question with a question?

 

Loren D
You mean like you just did?
Because you already admittedly know the answers. And because by this stage of the thread, if you don't know, you still won't know after I explain it to you.

 

UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: Loren D

You mean like you just did?
Because you already admittedly know the answers. And because by this stage of the thread, if you don't know, you still won't know after I explain it to you.

If you think that lets you off the hook, you are ignorantly smug.
There's one detail I haven't figured out. When we storm the castle to destroy the evil monster, do you go along or do you stay in your warm study and say "Oh, what a shame!" after rousing the rabble?

 

rxd
Max, I would really appreciate a translation of your latest post that is in Cyrilic.
Loren. Thank you for your expertise on the use of the T hammer. With every word it becomes increasingly aparent that you have no skills or experiemce using one whatsoever.
If you had started with the words; "I would imagine" your whole diatribe might be taken a little more seriously.
As with any tool, it takes years of practice and experience to build the skills and develop the strength to use one. It doesn't take much strength to become adept at miniscule turning adjustments but does take a combination of delicacy and moderate strength. I am quite wiry in build and I have no trouble with it but have been using it for year, particularly in grand high trebles when it is inconvenient to raise the lid.
I'm going to use mine more as a result of this conversation. On approprite instruments, of course.
As for 'correct' and 'proper' tools, (what pedantic words) what could be more ideal than a tool that let's you separate out the various components of the mechanics of tuning in a way that a lever can't.

 

Loren D
Good luck with the new pianos with monster pinblocks that are difficult to tune even with an impact hammer! It's your wrist, after all.

 

rxd

Originally Posted By: Loren D
Good luck with the new pianos with monster pinblocks that are difficult to tune even with an impact hammer! It's your wrist, after all.

Of course, didn't I just get thru telling you that there are limits only a couple of posts back?
Please don't resort to these silly transparent arguing techniques to obfuscate the issue. It's an adolescent trick. You simply did not know what you were talking about.
It is quite possible that the lever was introduced to deal with very tight pinblocks. When were laminated pinblocks first introduced? I simply don't know so I won't write about things I don't know.
I am going to a meeting in a few days and several international piano historians will be present. I'll ask them.
I find history fascinating, don't you? Particularly now that a lot of it is in my lifetime.

 

DoelKees

Translation:
Dear Eugene, moved to tears ensuing controversy around the theme: "Set up with the mediator." Frankly, he did not expect from our international forum such broad, and the most important moments of constructive discussion. Many thanks to all equipment that gave flattering assessment to me. Allow Eugene to ask you, once again extend a helping hand with a request to transfer my lines to be understood my position. Only you, as a practitioner, able to convey to the world's hopes and my personal experience. I will start with a lyric sheet, so that people can understand why Maxim does "everything topsy-turvy." I started using the Internet recently, less than 2 years ago because of my poverty. When I saw the clips on the network, as some tuners tuned, I will not deny, was surprised and even dismayed, by the methods and approaches that they apply in matters of temperament and technique work with the key. This does not mean that they are doing wrong, and only I know, "how to tune a piano." I was surprised by the techniques of working key, and it was very abrupt and ill-rotation, leading to an overestimation of the desired tone, and then released. You probably Eugene know what I mean? I think you like the practice of wizards, who worked in the Union, is well known that the splitting in the Soviet instruments are often installed in a traffic jam or verbilbanka window seat tube (frame testaceous species) is not centered. And this practice is not acceptable. Motion for setting up "Belarus" and "Toccata" is akin to the work field engineer in a minefield. Here, every movement must first be analyzed in terms of physics and the philosophy of the doctor "do no harm", otherwise it will not have that system, and even its approximate similarity, and then to smoothly maintain pressure throughout the arm, ignoring the ratchet key, attaching a clenched fist in base key. I sometimes, sorry for some indiscretion, "pulled from the Light", another Soviet model of piano and genuinely happy with the customer for an instrument which was made a "cross". How I came to the fact that I work with homemade, but very high quality keys, from the standpoint of physics? Again has to do digress. When I was very young and studied at the Ural State Music School, the program was necessary to study the subject of a "common piano," but I'm a populist (accordionist), then the parents have sacrificed in fact borrowed time adjustment amount of money so I could buy a second hand " Ukraine "in 1967. I set up the instrument at that time a good tuner in our city, but as you understand it less than a year, was upset, and I had a way out of this situation. Money for the setting to it, and tests on harmony and music theory, piano and had to surrender. His father made the big cronyism I tapered four-sided key, and I began to practice on your own piano, absolutely not knowing the basics of configuring and temperament. Now, I am pleased and anxious to remember those first, but nevertheless, meaningful steps. By reading and absorbing immense quantities in the literature on music theory, I understand for ourselves what is the sound and how it can divide. Nor whether this practice, I think I would have never understood and could not tune up. It should also be noted that because of my provincialism, I had no idea that the classical tuning key is different. So, gradually stocking the theoretical and practical knowledge of luggage, I'm practicing on his "Ukraine", suddenly began to receive orders. The main revelation for me were the words of one teacher who has behind him the Leningrad Conservatory, where he noted that such a proper and correct temperament, he could not even imagine the Soviet piano. This I then found out for myself what he meant when he said, and chuckled that "Bach would be pleased."
Now, on the merits, I must state the following,
anyone and in no way impose its "improper methods for setting", because as we said earlier, "All my work is the product of a coercive environment," but I believe that this method is the place to be and here's why:
1. One of the principal advantages of the 4 sided taper key is very difficult to rotate and fit the right tone, so there is a particular concentration of the hearing tuner and musical analysis of the desired sound. Otherwise, the tune quickly weary, and not set up correctly notes, even in the choir
2. When working key, we can not help save the life seat chopping. Pegs state mechanism - a "body and soul of the piano." The fewer moves in verbilbanke pin, the greater the residual life of a piano, and as a consequence of the longer terms of temperament, "the right sound." I noticed that I tuned instrument, especially imported, up to 5-7 years do not worry!
3. Tuners not "licking." The octagonal key, whether we like it or not take, anyway, over and over again triggered the verge of splitting. This damage pins.
4. When I work without stubs, then without any conditionality, and most importantly, staying focused on moving the desired intervals, the entire instrument is able to save time and resource chopping, to hear the full range of harmony and intervaliki, both in individual sectors, and in the presentation of chords and like the Russian guslar.
5. The only and fundamental disadvantage of this method, its duration. And, it is usually I set more than 5 hours. However, the inconvenience tuner does not count.
With respect to all participants of the forum, Maxim

 

pianosxxi

Max,
Thank you for sharing your story. Very inspiring. Looks like you are on the right path. It's always good to know that someone is always looking for different ways to solve a problem or to perfect their skill. Wish you all the best.
As we already see, many techs (even in U.S., to rxd) use T shape to tune pianos, I personally use it on hapsichords and harps. Unfortunately I cannot use it on the piano, due to lack of strength in my wrist. I believe that T shape tuning hammer is less damaging for piano compared to L shape. All in all, good piano techs can implement both when necessary.

 

Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: pianosxxi

All in all, good piano techs can implement both when necessary.

Thank you Gene for good words . Indiscribable pleased that method of T shape tuning hammer use in USA. For me big discovery that You personally use for harp and hapsichords
Искренне Ваш Максим

 

Maximillyan
Dear Sirs (UnrightToone, rxd, pianosxxi, DoelKees, pianolive, accordeur, rysowers) Thank You for support and understanding to importance of the subject. You have indicated much positive moments. I express feeling of the deep moral satisfaction for your messages

 

Maximillyan
DoelKees спасибо за качественный и весьма понятный перевод
С уважением maxim_tuner (Maximillyan)

 

Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd

Originally Posted By: Loren D

Good luck with the new pianos with monster pinblocks that are difficult to tune even with an impact hammer! It's your wrist, after all.

I am going to a meeting in a few days and several international piano historians will be present. I'll ask them.

The Dear piano tec. forgive that film in russian only. Be can You will useful see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j-2cvK8hKA

 

rxd
Thanks, DoelKees for the translation. A very touching story. I am very gratful to you.
I have discvered that it would cost £1800 (GBP) to send Max to Moscow with a 3* hotel for a week for intensive training. There are most likely other alternatives. Does anyone know someplace in Moscow That would be qualified to give this training?

 

UnrightTooner

RXD:
The first step in helping Max would be better equipment. If there was some way to set up an account with Frank's PianoSupplies.com for Max to use I will put in the first $50.

 

rxd

Jeff.
Read further back in the thread. Max did send me his address and I will mail him a tuning lever plus some other things. Pre-paying excise duty.
Your suggestion is brilliant.
Even though we often behave like a loose confederation of warring tribes, we can unite to help a colleague.

 

UnrightTooner

RXD:
I have been trying to think of a similar situation as Max’s. The closest I can think of was in Zhanjiang, China. On different streets in the city, different craftsman worked. On some streets tin ware was made, on others furniture. On one, electric motors were repaired. Workers would sit out in the open and wind copper wire around their hands and then push them in place the best that they could. I can’t imagine that the results were as good as a modern facility could do, and it would be nothing like a new motor. So should these workers be held in low esteem? NO! They are taking something that is unusable and doing the best they can with what they have. That is how I look at Max’s efforts.
So does anybody have a close connection with Frank to pursue setting up an account for Max? Or maybe someone has another idea.

 

Mark R.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

I can’t imagine that the results were as good as a modern facility could do, and it would be nothing like a new motor. So should these workers be held in low esteem? NO! They are taking something that is unusable and doing the best they can with what they have.

Absolutely nothing wrong with that - kudos to them! We have similar street industries in some townships here in South Africa. In fact, it constitutes a whole so-called second or third economy.
But Max went one step further.
I do wonder what sort of comments those Chinese armature winders would have garnered if they, similar to what Max did, recorded a video of their efforts, uploaded it to youtube under the title, "The School of the young electrician" and posted it in a (more or less) professional electrician's forum for comments.

 

rxd

OK Jeff, Ok. I saw the mammoth 'no'. You're not shouting at me, are you? I am familiar with your argument but, as you know, it isn't necessary for anything else to be wrong in order for one thing to be right. By the same token, it is not necessary to destroy Max's current skills in order to offer him complemenary ones.
My world is not either or, it's all encompassing as yours seems to be.
I just thought, does the guild offer scholarships to conventions?
Are we possibly being a bit patronising? I don't know.
Let the forum decide and, of course, Max.

 

UnrightTooner

NO! I am not shouting at you. I am shouting at the elitist attitude of the developed world.
I don’t think we are being patronizing. There has been some very direct criticism.
After reading Doel’s translation (Thanks Doel!), I think Max does comprehend pin manipulation. And when he has a proper tuning hammer I think both his technique and his unisons will improve. I think it is significant that he has somehow tapered the inside of the socket. Maybe he cannot conceive of a usuable eight point tapered socket. Best not to try to read much into the translation.

 

DoelKees

Max:
I think you try in your videos to teach people in your area how to tune pianos without buying expensive tools. How to make your own tuning hammer for example.
If we give you expensive tools you could work better but you can not teach anyone because the can not afford the tools.
Am I correct?
If you want tools I will add my $50 to the fund Jeff suggested to help you.
Я думаю, вы попробуйте в своих видео, чтобы научить людей в вашем районе, как настроить пианино, не покупая дорогих инструментов. Как сделать свой собственный молот тюнинг для примера.
Если мы дадим вам дорогие инструменты, которые могли бы работать лучше, но вы не можете научить никому, потому что не могут позволить себе инструменты.
Я правильно?
Если вы хотите инструментов я добавлю мои 50 долларов в фонд Джефф предложил, чтобы помочь вам.
Kees

 

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Am I correct?

You are right 100%
The Dear piano's tech. THANK YOU SO MUCH. Your care do not know the borders. I love so much our Forum. Our forum solves the primary tasks on repair and usages piano. I for few months has got from You plenty of useful and constructive information though do not know english That tech. have begun to collect donation for Max this it is correct and pleasantly. I to notarize that money to me required for the further development skill. With deep respect, Max

 

Withindale

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Loren:Are you suggesting that we somehow protect Max's customers from themselves?

Click on this link for another take on Max's work from the UK - Encourage or not?

 

Loren D

Encourage to learn and get proper tools for the job? Absolutely. Encourage more of the same of what was in the video? Nope.

 

pianolive

Made a parcel today for Max with a extension lever, tips, mutes and a few other things.
Will find the fastest and most secure way tomorrow to get it shipped to him.

 

Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: pianolive

Made a parcel today for Max

THANKS!!!

 

rxd

Pianolive,
I have been making a few enqiuries, My suppliers say that many times, parcels are held at customs and excise and Max may have to go collect them and pay duties.
Best contact the Kazakhstan Embassy first to check on the best way of circumventing this distinct possibility.
The same thing happens here in UK and I know it does in USA.
Best to check and ask them the best way before sending anything that could get misappropriated.

 

pianolive

Rxd,
Thanks.
Yes, I am aware of this and did send a mail to the embassy yesterday. Will call tomorrow.
There are some transport companies which can deliver directly to Max as he seems to live in the western part of the country.

 

rxd

This thread has developed a life of its' own outside pianoworld.
One poster who left this particular thread in disgust is now claiming (on another forum) the moral high ground for attempting to marginalise Max and deprive him of his livelihood. All this under the guise of purifying our profession. (Well, he calls it a trade).
Hasn't history has proven this kind of thinking devastatingly wrong?.

 

Phil D

And shamefully, it's a British tuner on a UK forum. "Savages, I tell you" said in the best colonial accent. "Need to be stopped, what?"

 

rxd

Send in a gunboat and a platoon of cavalry!.
Frank!... The British are doing that self depracating humor thing again.... Make 'em stop!

 

UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: Phil D

And shamefully, it's a British tuner on a UK forum. "Savages, I tell you" said in the best colonial accent. "Need to be stopped, what?"
But how would he actually do it? The devil is in the details.

 

Withindale

Gentlemen
Hasn't this issue, "Encourage or not?", now been as fully debated on both sides on the pond as it should have been?
In the end actions speak louder than words.

 



rxd

Originally Posted By: Withindale

Gentlemen
Hasn't this issue, "Encourage or not?", now been as fully debated on both sides on the pond as it should have been?
In the end actions speak louder than words.

No!!!!, One of the central issues is only just coming to light.
I am currently acting on the situation, so are a few more of us, are you???.
Jeff,
Thats the next question. Who's got the answer and who exactly is this chap that is in the details.
Where are we going and what am I doing in this handbasket?
Another issue that was thrown up (in) was the T hammer thing. I had some lunchtime concerts to tune for last Friday morning and have tuned almost eveything since with a T hammer.... Some 10 year old Kawai RX's (A brand new Shigaru and the new Steinway 9's needed a lever), but the 30 yr old Steinways responded well to the T. By far the best was a 35 yr. old Bosendorfer that I tuned last week for an all Liszt program. A string broke During the concert but the rest of the piano stayed in tune.
I fixt the string and left everything for the week full of many rehearsals and Heavy Jazz things. I tuned again last Friday morning and, with a T hammer was nitpicking the slight noises in the unisons. The T hammer helped me feel the exact set of the pin that I didn't feel with the lever the week before ( I tend towards the self critical). Hopefully It will stay even better this week. The Bosendorfer responded as though it was designed for that tool. Wouldn't use it on a new one, though.
I asked my favorite piano historian about the introduction of the lever for tuning. In Europe, at least, he reckons the move to plate bushings and tighter pinblocks that really took hold some time after WW1. A relatively new interloper, it seems. That's not to say it didn't exist in factories before then. A colleague here tells me that he was not allowed to use a lever until the second year of training and he's a young fella 'bout my age. I don't know about anywhere else.

Withindale

rxd:
Well, OK then. [btw I hadn't seen Jeff's post]
What central issue do you have in mind? It's not clear, to me at least.
A glib answer to Jeff's question is to civilise the savages. If one should do that at all, should one start in the UK or Kazakhstan?
Your offer of a tuning lever was perfect.

 

UnrightTooner

RXD:
It is easy to say that so-and-so should not be in the so-and-so business. But the ugliness of this statement, devilishly, comes out when you try different scenarios to make it happen. The best alternative is to simply state "Let the buyer beware."
If someone disagrees, let's hear a workable, angelic scenario.
As far as the T-handle, I have never used one, but can see the advantages in control. My forearms aren't quite what they were in my Popeye days (24 yrs at sea, much of it on deck), but I often plant my elbow and just use my fingers and wrist to move the hammer. I will have to see what mood I am in next time I place an order.

 

daniokeeper

So...

rxd

Jeff. Yep. Exactly. Even all our best legal minds can't get past ' buyer beware'.
Let me know how you get on with Mr. T. It's surprisingly easy on a suitable piano.
Withindale, That's what makes it central. It keeps on raising another question.
Other central issues are, how easy it is to demonise someone, how we define ourselves by what we're not, evading the question of who we are, the self esteem issues embedded in the need to put another person down in order to (as we think) make oneself look good. The ' guilt by association' of someone who springs to the defence of the one being demonized.
The list goes on.

 

Phil D

Ahh... a philosopher

 

UnrightTooner

RXD:
You make piano tuning sound simplistic in comparison.

 

Silverwood Pianos

Originally Posted By: rxd

I have discvered that it would cost £1800 (GBP) to send Max to Moscow with a 3* hotel for a week for intensive training. There are most likely other alternatives. Does anyone know someplace in Moscow That would be qualified to give this training?

I have here a second hand copy of the Randy Potter Course. While this is not the intensive training that Max would receive in Moscow, I can ship this as a gift to him. That will get him started. I can even blank out the original answers on the exams so he can take them on his own and have then marked here perhaps…..
Can also throw in a few books;Reblitz and a few others.
Originally Posted By: rxd
Read further back in the thread. Max did send me his address and I will mail him a tuning lever plus some other things. Pre-paying excise duty.
Rxd can you pm me the address for this person. I can ship prepaid.

Withindale

rxd, from my brief layman's experience in these forums I'd agree that "buyer beware of ..." and more positively "buyer be aware of ..." are two issues worthy of everyone's attention: tuners and technicians; profession and trade; demonisers and demons; marketeers and lawyers; pianists and teachers.

 

rxd

Rxd can you pm me the address for this person. I can ship prepaid.
[/quote]
Read further back in this thread. where this is covered.
Kz customs and excise can make it that Max might have to travel to pick things up and there may be duties for him to pay.
U
Contact your local Kz embassy or consulate for ways of avoiding this or prepaying duties.
I consider it more appropriate that Max himself gives you his address, don't you? He might also give you further info on this.

 

pianolive

I have a parcel send for Max and it will be delivered to his home address.
There is a extension lever with 3 tips of different lenght.
Mutes and some small tools. A cembalolever too.
I just tell this so we dont drown the man in tuning hammers

 

rxd

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

RXD:
You make piano tuning sound simplistic in comparison.

That's right. You draw a valid comparison.
Coaxing something out of its' complacency in order to adopt a new attitude while at the same time reconciling the ensuing conflicting forces is something that a piano will readily hold still for.
Not so for the human mind.
Frank!!... They're doing it again... Make 'em stop.

 

Silverwood Pianos

I can’t find anything in the thread with regard to his address. Must be somewhere but out of time now, I will find another way.

 

rxd

Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

I can’t find anything in the thread with regard to his address. Must be somewhere but out of time now, I will find another way.

Dan. Read my post again. I'm sure Max will give you his address just as I would be the appropriate person to ask for my address.
If I gave you my address, I would not expect it to be passed around without my permission for any reason. I am simply extending the same courtesy to Max.
Far quicker and more polite to ask him yourself.

 

 

Phil D

Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

I have here a second hand copy of the Randy Potter Course. While this is not the intensive training that Max would receive in Moscow, I can ship this as a gift to him. That will get him started. I can even blank out the original answers on the exams so he can take them on his own and have then marked here perhaps…..
Can also throw in a few books;Reblitz and a few others.

Don't forget that Max doesn't read nor speak English!

 

rxd

Phil, it seems he does have some sort of computerized translator.

 

Phil D
True, and I'm not trying to smother any fires here, its just that I don't think his translator, which I think is just Google Translate, is going to be up for the job of translating the technical language into anything meaningful for him, even if he did go to the effort of copying the text from the book onto a computer. Bearing in mind that he will have a cyrillic keyboard, and so the letters will have to be input some other way.
We forget how huge language barriers are, and in this case, it is a massive barrier. I've looked in vain to see if Reblitz has been translated into Russian, which I think Max can read.
I wonder if there are any books on piano servicing available in Russian. I'm not sure even how to approach finding out!

 

rxd

Yes there are. I saw copies in the stacks at the Library of Congress. Wash. D. C. No use to Max there but proof of their existence.
There is also a music conservatory at the other end of Kz. 3,600 miles away and they have a website. Max is not entirely without 'local' resources particularly since he has Email and Internet.

 

Mark R.

I am fluent in German, English and Afrikaans, can converse in broken Dutch, and understand little smatterings of French and Zulu. And I can state confidently that most human translators, and more to the point, all electronic translators such as Google Translate, fail miserably when it comes to technical texts, such as Reblitz's textbook.
I had to ask German piano technicians for the correct terms in order to be able to understand their texts and converse with them. There was literally no other way.
What you call a wippen, they call a "lifting member".
What you call a rail, they call a "beam".
What you call a jack, they call a "jill" (only joking, they call it a "push-tongue").
What you call a let-off button, they call a "let-off doll".
What you call a butt and a knuckle, they call a "nut" and a "roll".
Your pinblock or wrestplank is their "tuning stock".
Your keybed is their "chair bottom" or "chair board".
Your V-bar is their "Silie" (zee-lee-eh).
And so it goes on...
[Edit: perhaps nicest of all, your catcher is their "back catcher", while your backcheck is their "catcher". Go figure...]
Sorry to say, but while I think all donors' efforts are laudible, I'm afraid that the Reblitz book (and possibly even the Randy Potter course) will do Max very little good.

 

rxd

I agree, Mark. We Even sometimes have confusion between American terminology and British terminology.
I amaze myself how much I understand of Max's overly 'literal' translations. They vary enormously in their comprehensibility, have you noticed? perhaps he occasionally has an English speaking friend help him. My mental thesaurus works overtime even on my 4th or 5th reading of some sentences.
I avidly devoured even foreign language books when I was a student with only one year of some languages. Only Cyrillics and hieroglyphics could stop me.
Don't forget, a picture speaks a thousand words.
Max is resourceful. Don't underestimate him. I can't help wondering if he has exhausted the resources that I know are available in his own language. Most of us know that a maverick can operate even where information and guidance is readily available.
I have friends and friends of freinds who are Kz. nationals researching the availability of help in his own country.

 

UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: rxd

Max is resourceful. Don't underestimate him. I can't help wondering if he has exhausted the resources that I know are available in his own language. Most of us know that a maverick can operate even where information and guidance is readily available.
Yes, he is also “a big fish in a little pond.” An expert in his own eyes, but a tinkerer in others (including mine). His YouTube videos are designed to instruct, not to seek guidance.
There is a saying I like: “Who taught the first chicken to peck?” Max taught himself. He was not spoon fed. So I see enormous potential. We can offer what resources we might have and then it is up to Max to use them the best he can.

 

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: rxd

Max is resourceful. Don't underestimate him. I can't help wondering if he has exhausted the resources that I know are available in his own language. Most of us know that a maverick can operate even where information and guidance is readily available.
There is a saying I like: “Who taught the first chicken to peck?” Max taught himself. He was not spoon fed.

Dear tech. of piano, I happy for the activity to the discussions. Critical and fair assessment of forced me to work and learn from mistakes. I get a lot of useful information and I thank you for your research about T-hammer. For me the surprise controversy on this subject not only to our forum, but English http://www.piano-tuners.org/piano-forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9479
This is a great honor for me. I publish their own T-hammers and the scheme drawing (mm). You may need to make a order repair T-hammer. If you have non-standard pin, need to forge this pin (hot press, smithy) I am attaching a chart-drawing and photo T-hammers http://fotki.yandex.ru/users/maxim-tuner/album/170673
Its video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkKwpV_3HXI
Maybe someone will need it. Yours Maximillyan

 

JohnSprung

Originally Posted By: rxd

I have friends and friends of freinds who are Kz. nationals researching the availability of help in his own country.

NASA would be another place to look for contacts. Baikonur in South-Central Kz. is the world's only remaining manned space launch site.

 

rxd

Originally Posted By: JohnSprung

Originally Posted By: rxd

I have friends and friends of freinds who are Kz. nationals researching the availability of help in his own country.

NASA would be another place to look for contacts. Baikonur in South-Central Kz. is the world's only remaining manned space launch site.

since I'm in the UK, is that something you could do?

 

DoelKees

Originally Posted By: rxd

Max is resourceful. Don't underestimate him. I can't help wondering if he has exhausted the resources that I know are available in his own language.

Would it be possible for the PTG to fund him to attend one of these major yearly conferences? I'm not sure if this is something that PTG does but, speaking as an Associate Member, I would be pleased if it did.
Kees

 

DoelKees

rXd:
I think you're overreacting a bit, not that I appreciate the sentiment (and I pledge my $50 for Max).
You sound a bit like Max has some terminal disease and we should rally to save him.
Also this fellow Johnkie with 45 years experience as a concert tuner certainly comes over as a pompous ass, but his only point was really that he objected to Max posting instructional video's teaching people the wrong thing. At least wrong outside his area.
And anyone on youtube can watch his video's (if they speak Russian) and think: hey this is a great free online course to become a piano technician. Machine oil, cardboard, using a plectrum instead of mutes, etc...
Hope you get my drift.
That being said, let me repeat that I appreciate the sentiment (and I pledge my $50 for Max).
Cheers,
Kees

 

UnrightTooner

Doel:
My $50 pledge holds also, but I am now wondering the best way to apply it. There have been at least 3 offers for shipments of second hand tools and supplies. It might get the best "bang for the buck" to forward the $50 to one of the donors to help cover shipping costs rather than an account for Max. Let's ask Max.
Hey Max:
Which would you prefer?
1.) I (and others?) try to start an account for you to purchase tools and supplies from pianosupplies.com.
2.) Help reimburse shipping costs for tools and supplies sent to you by donors?

 

UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Dear tech. of piano, I happy for the activity to the discussions. Critical and fair assessment of forced me to work and learn from mistakes. I get a lot of useful information and I thank you for your research about T-hammer.
Max:
Can you give some examples of what you have learned from this Forum?

 

rxd

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

rXd:
I think you're overreacting a bit, not that I appreciate the sentiment (and I pledge my $50 for Max).
You sound a bit like Max has some terminal disease and we should rally to save him.
Also this fellow Johnkie with 45 years experience as a concert tuner certainly comes over as a pompous ass,,,,
Kees

Yes, I probably did get overprotective in my attempt to kick against those whom you call a pompous ass. I tried to do it in the least judgemental way and certainly not resort to name calling. I'm the last person to think there's anything diseased and certainly not terminal. That's the position of the other side.
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to do a bit of name calling for myself in an indirect way, and not be totally responsible for it.

 

DoelKees

rxd:
For the record, I did not indulge in name calling.
I just mentioned Johnkie "came across" as a pompous ass, not that he is one. In fact most British sound like pompous asses to me because of their funny accent. I am sure they are not.
Kees

 

rxd

Record amended.

 

Supply

Let's all stay a little bit closer to reality here, folks.
Originally Posted By: JohnSprung
NASA would be another place to look for contacts. Baikonur in South-Central Kz. is the world's only remaining manned space launch site.
NASA???? Well, now that the space shuttle era has ended, maybe they are looking for other worthwhile projects....
Quote:Would it be possible for the PTG to fund him to attend one of these major yearly conferences? I'm not sure if this is something that PTG does...
Hardly. The PTG does not even cover travel expenses of world class technicians who come to the annual conventions to give seminars.
With all due respect, understanding and empathy and everything else: is trying to tune by strumming a piano's strings really worth a thread of over a hundred posts?

Silverwood Pianos

Originally Posted By: Supply

Let's all stay a little bit closer to reality here, folks.

Ok lets do that then.
Not trying to be too objective but a couple of things I have observed;
One is how Max has enough funds to have a computer, an internet provider, and be on the internet.
And the other is the video camera to upload all of those videos to Youtube.
Certainly with funding for those things he could find funding for shipping costs perhaps?

 

rxd

I have an impecunious friend who has access to my computer equipment. Quite a common situation inthe world.
There are many things we don't know that I'm trying to find out.

 

JohnSprung

Yes, with the shuttle gone, NASA is using Baikonur for access to the international space station. Everybody is, it's the only manned launch facility. So, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they have a regular pouch. Sure, it's a long shot, but it would be fun if it paid off. If anybody here knows anybody at NASA, it wouldn't hurt to ask.

 

Thrill Science

Максим:
Я уверен, что никто из людей здесь настроили вертикальную фортепиано как ваш "Беларусь".
В этом случае, они могут иметь больше симпатии к вам!


DoelKees
Wise words from Jurgen and Dan.
Back on topic I once experimented with tuning with a plectrum. Put a brick on the sustain pedal, pluck the string and tune with an ETD. (Plucking an interval seems to requires a third hand for your hammer.) Unisons by ear.
The idea was to eliminate time spent on muting strings.
It didn't work because I spent more time waiting for the string to quiet down than I would spend on muting. Maybe if I wore felt gloves I could shut them up when not needed.
Kees

 

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Wise words from Jurgen and Dan.
Back on topic I once experimented with tuning with a plectrum.Kees

Уважаемый DoelKees . Очень рад Вашим экспериментам и думаю, что отчётливо вижу как вы это делали. Однако как было сказано мною ранее, мой «варварский способ» родился потому, что я не знал, как надо настраивать. Не знал, как это работает. Вы правильно отметили, что для рояля это очень трудно. Однако для пианино, позволю Вам заметить, я считаю, очень даже приемлемо. Как я это делаю :
1. Я нажимаю клавишу «ля1»-440 пальцем левой руки и слушаю звук, нахожу несоответствие в хорах
2. Я далее держу эту клавишу, когда струны уже затихли. Демпфер сейчас открыт.
3. Я начинаю щипать медиатором (правая рука) все струны, выявляю несоответствия между струнами
4. Насаживаю ключ на нужный колок. Я работаю ключом одинаково правой и левой рукой.
5. Правой работаю ключом, левой держу клавишу, медиатор держу то в правой, то в левой.
6. Когда я настраиваю «ре2», то слушаю одновременно и звуки щипка «ля1». То есть сначала правильные интервалы, а затем и щипковые аккорды, подобно гусляру.
7. Я не нажимаю педаль
Вы правы, когда пишите о третьей руке. Однако Господь распорядился иначе. Я считаю, что в моём методе двух достаточно.
С уважением, Максим.
Dear DoelKees. I am very glad your experiment and I think that I clearly see how you did it. However, as mentioned by me earlier, my "barbaric way," was born because I did not know how to adjust. I did not know how it works. You correctly noted that a piano is very difficult. However, for up right piano, will let you see, I think, very much acceptable. How do I do it:
1. I press the key "A1" -440 finger of my left hand and listen to the sound, I find a discrepancy in the choir
2. I continue to hold down it key when the string is silenced. The damper is now open.
3. I'm starting to pinch the mediator (right hand) all the strings, reveal inconsistencies between the strings
4. I insert T-hammer (my right hand) in one pin. I can work for the same T-hammer right or left hand.
5. Right-working T-hammer, hold the left key, hold the pick in the right, then left.
6. When I set "D2"made, then listen to the sounds together and tweak 'la1. " That is, first the correct intervals, and then plucked chords like guslar.
7. I do not use the pedal
You are right when they write about the third hand. However, the Lord made us otherwise. I think in my method two is enough.
Regards, Max.

 

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: Thrill Science

больше симпатии к вам!

Роберт,весьма польщён, спасибо за слова благодарности.

 

rxd

Just to be clear. What Max is calling a T hammer is not what we know as a T hammer. Max is using a cleverly adapted socket set and he is using it differently.

 

rxd

Max,
first of all, let me congratulate you on your vastly improved English skills in your recent posts. I feel we can say more without being misunderstood.
What is concerning a lot of people here is the way you use your tuning tool. To us, it looks like the pins are being 'flagpoled' (meaning leaned out of line without much turning) with a degree of force that we see as too much.
It is outside our traditions to tune by plucking the strings. We sound the notes with the piano keys.
We isolate or separate out each individual string with soft wedges. The final test is to sound the note with the key and listen for a completely still note with no interference in the sustain.
Then we sound many different pairs of notes within the middle octave so that their relashionship to each other is correct.
The main difference is to have each note completely still with no movement in the sustain of the note. Listen to any good recording and you will hear this.
So far we have not heard this in your tuning so there are different expectations.

 

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: rxd

Max is using a cleverly adapted socket set and he is using it differently.

Dear rxd, regrettably I very busy now. Considering Your to me objectivity, ask You to give the exact name of my "homemade hammer". If possible explain the participants of the forum: As this "homemade hammer" do? Respectfully yours,Maximillyan

 

rxd

Is your tuning tool sold commercially as a tuning tool specifically for pianos? If so, I apologise. To us, it looks like what we call a 'socket set' that can be bought cheaply at automotive stores.
In one of your videos it looks gold plated in a presentation case, so we could be very wrong. Most of is are going by your first video which we found alarming.
Your use of it seems drastic in the 'bending' of the tuning pins. To some, it looks dangerously close to breaking the pins.
We expect our tunings to stay in tune a long time. To us, your method looks like the setting of the tuning pins is not present in the usual way. If we are wrong, please explain what you are doing.
We would be more convinced if we heard a 'still' note (as explained in my previous post) on your videos because that is what a good, experienced pianist expects from us. So far, we haven't heard one.
You live in a town of 300,000? If you were to be asked to tune the piano in your nearest concert hall, for a visiting well known pianist, still notes, with no beats or pulsations in their sustain would be expected.
Anybody out there can describe this better than me? Please have a go.

 

Mark R.

I'll try.
I really like this video, even if I don't understand a word of Japanese.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbNYS6Oot4M&feature=related
0:00 - 1:56:
He gives a very good graphic illustration of unisons (single notes). He shows the beating and the still unisons (notes) with his hand.
1:58 - 3:51:
He sets the pitch and builds his temperament.
3:52 - 5:36:
He demonstrates unison tuning. As far as I can hear, he tunes very nice unisons!

 

Loren D

That is an EXCELLENT video.

UnrightTooner

Sure, RXD, I will give it a try. Math is a universal language.
Max:
Let us start with A-440, which on the piano is A4. A4 is the 4th A from the bottom. If one string on A4 is at 440hz and another is at 441hz a “beat” will occur. This “beat” will occur once every second like a slow vibrato. It may sound like the pitch is raising and falling. Actually the volume is growing louder and softer. As the waves go into and out of phase the volume increases and decreases.
The goal is to have both strings (eventually all three strings) at exactly 440hz. Of course, nothing is exact, this is just the goal. When the two strings are very close (about 0.25hz) they will “couple”. When they “couple” they will stay in phase.
For both strings to sound in phase (sound “beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time. A plectrum will not do this, but the piano’s hammer will. There are times to use a plectrum. Plucking individual strings to determine problems is useful. Many strings in the treble will have false beats. This is when a single string will sound with a beat. Plucking can be used to determine which string has a false beat. But when tuning two strings to sound as one, it is best to use the piano’s hammer to sound the strings.
Now let us discuss your tuning tool. The commercial name is a T-bar socket wrench:



I applaud you for having a tapered socket made for yours.
A piano tuning T-hammer is different:



And a typical tuning hammer is even more different:



There are some major differences between how your tuning tool works and how normal tuning hammers works. Your tool causes a large amount of flagpoling. Flagpoling is when the pin bends as torque is applied to the pin. It is caused by the distance between the plane of force and the plane of the resistance. The handle of the tool is in the plane of force. The pinblock is in the plane of resistance.
With a tuning T-hammer the flagpoling can be completely eliminated. The force can be applied to both sides of the hammer equally. Your tool can also completely eliminate flagpoling. You would need to slide the bar to a middle position and grab the bar in the middle while using it. This may not be possible with a four sided socket on an upright. This will also be difficult when the pins are tight.
With a typical tuning hammer the flagpoling is reduced. And the effect of the remaining flagpoling can be controlled. It is reduced by having the plane of force close to the plane of resistance. In other words: the socket is shorter. The effect of the remaining flagpoling is controlled by the positioning of the hammer. When the hammer handle is in line with the strings, the remaining flagpoling will not affect the pitch of the string being tuned. An eight sided tip (socket) allows more choices of position and better control.
However, flagpoling can be useful in “setting the pin”. Setting the pin is when the residual twist in the pin is equalized and when the difference in tension between the speaking part of the string and the non-speaking parts of the strings is equalized. A string will not stay at the pitch it was tuned at unless the “pin has been set.”
Those on this Forum have many disagreements. One thing that we can agree on is that we would like to see the pianos that you are tuning, be tuned much better. A typical tuning hammer and typical tuning technique is the way for the pianos to be tuned much better.

 

rxd
Originally Posted By: Loren D
That is an EXCELLENT video.

+1
if a picture paints a thousand words, a moving picture paints a million.
With sound, a billion.
Something constructive. Now, how Max responds to instruction will dictate the next move. We await his next video with clean(er) unisons and cleaner technique.
Thanks, Mark.
Thanks, Jeff, too. You posted while I was waxing praise.

 

Mark R.

My pleasure. I was elated when I found that video, between all the noise on youtube.
For the record: I am in no position to criticise, let alone instruct anyone here. But I can still share what I hear and see and think is worthwhile. That video shows a level to which I can only aspire myself!

 

Loren D

Interesting, though. Watching him tune with the lever at 2:00, he obviously flags the pin downward a bit when rotating counterclockwise, while using a slight upward push to set. I've always tended to pull slightly upward and then set with a slightly downward push; sort of the reverse of what he does. His way seems more relaxed. He definitely sets a nice unison!

 

UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: Loren D

Interesting, though. Watching him tune with the lever at 2:00, he obviously flags the pin downward a bit when rotating counterclockwise, while using a slight upward push to set. I've always tended to pull slightly upward and then set with a slightly downward push; sort of the reverse of what he does. His way seems more relaxed. He definitely sets a nice unison!

You can only tell so much from a video, although this is a very good one! He may not be actually moving the foot of the pin when going CCW, but merely rendering the string. And the final CW movement may be what is called “the monkey’s tail” to equalize the torque in the pin. The term is seldom heard. The technique is valuable for very tight pins with plenty of V-bar friction. This is the situation where I will also use tuning blows. But then he just may be doing the reverse of what you and I normally do, Loren. It's hard to be sure...
The two things that struck me were that he puts the tuning fork between his teeth, as I do. But I put it between my front teeth. And he must have inserted the muting strip from right to left instead of left to right as I do. I will have to try both variations.
Thanks Mark!



rxd
Originally Posted By: Mark R.

My pleasure. I was elated when I found that video, between all the noise on youtube.
For the record: I am in no position to criticise, let alone instruct anyone here. But I can still share what I hear and see and think is worthwhile. That video shows a level to which I can only aspire myself!

That puts you in an even better position to help in the way you do. Some of us don't or can't or daren't analyse what we do any more.
Thanks again.

 

Monaco
What do you all think about the intensity of his blows. It appears to me that he never uses a "test blow." Do you find this acceptable?

 

rxd

We'll get to that all in good time.
In the meantime, some of the most solid concert tuners I ever knew in any country didn't get much above mf.
They knew how to set pins and deal with tension equalisation entirely by the feel of the pin as it relates to the pitch. You may have heard their work on many recordings.
I have leveled strings with one of their tunings on the piano and nothing moved. It's a whole different ballgame with them.
Beating a piano to death while tuning signifies nothing.

 

Loren D

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: Loren D

Interesting, though. Watching him tune with the lever at 2:00, he obviously flags the pin downward a bit when rotating counterclockwise, while using a slight upward push to set. I've always tended to pull slightly upward and then set with a slightly downward push; sort of the reverse of what he does. His way seems more relaxed. He definitely sets a nice unison!

You can only tell so much from a video, although this is a very good one! He may not be actually moving the foot of the pin when going CCW, but merely rendering the string. And the final CW movement may be what is called “the monkey’s tail” to equalize the torque in the pin. The term is seldom heard. The technique is valuable for very tight pins with plenty of V-bar friction. This is the situation where I will also use tuning blows. But then he just may be doing the reverse of what you and I normally do, Loren. It's hard to be sure...
Actually, my bad, Jeff; I meant to say flagpoling when turning clockwise, not counter-clockwise. That's what I get for typing before caffeine! When he's raising pitch, with the lever at 2:00 or so, he's got to be pulling the pin downward a bit. You'll then notice he overshoots, and then sets the pin by untwisting and pushing up; the opposite of what I was used to doing, which is manipulating the pin slightly up while raising, and then down (toward the floor) when setting.
Sorry for the confusion!

JohnSprung

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

For both strings to sound in phase (sound “beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time. A plectrum will not do this, but the piano’s hammer will. There are times to use a plectrum. Plucking individual strings to determine problems is useful. Many strings in the treble will have false beats. This is when a single string will sound with a beat. Plucking can be used to determine which string has a false beat.

There's one other place for plucking: In the piano factory or the rebuilder's shop, it's used sometimes to do a rough tuning and get tension on the strings before the action is available.
It's called "chip tuning" because they use the chips of wood that are always available in such places.

 

DoelKees

Originally Posted By: JohnSprung

There's one other place for plucking: In the piano factory or the rebuilder's shop, it's used sometimes to do a rough tuning and get tension on the strings before the action is available.
It's called "chip tuning" because they use the chips of wood that are always available in such places.

I have a video of Bill Bremmer tuning unisons, where he plucks the strings in the high treble.
It should be here but it is not.
Kees

 

BDB

I pluck strings sometimes to orient myself and find out if an individual string is sharp or flat.

 

rxd
Plucking Blüthner aliquots comes to mind although the new redesigned system can be heard quite clearly in normal playing once they're somewhere close to pitch and plucking becomes unnecesslary.
Maybe plucking the strings of the top 2-3 notes if they are unusually weak but only to get them close. Then fine tune normally.
No. The acurate tuning we are promoting requires playing the note involved from the keyboard.
At least Max is using a plectrum and, as far as I can see, not touching the strings with his fingers as many uninformed tuners do.

 

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

The commercial name is a T-bar socket wrench:
I applaud you for having a tapered socket made for yours.
One thing that we can agree on is that we would like to see the pianos that you are tuning, be tuned much better.

Dear UnrightTooner, from now on, if you and all our masters forum allowed me to your advice to call my hammer
    "maxim_tuner's T-bar socket wrench".
What concerns my method of tuning the vertical piano, I'm not saying all do it now. I believe in special cases, T-hammers wrench can also use it. My main idea is that there can be no fundamental difference in setting up the usual "classical" method 8 sided hammer and T shaped key. Tuners can do the operation T-hammers more difficult and do not effectively. However, the result can not vary or I'm wrong? If I have an opportunity, I will be create the full video of its own method about. Then you will be substantively and fundamentally criticize this method. Sincerely,Maximillyan

 



UnrightTooner

Max:
Do you understand flagpoling?
No need to post another video. There is enough to criticize in the ones you have already posted.
Hopefully you will soon have a typical tuning hammer and can experience the difference.
Let me ask again: Can you give some examples of what you have learned from this Forum?

 

rxd

Max,
I am amazed at your grasp of the English language in just the 4 months that you have been posting. No computer translator could get the subtleties of our language as you have started to do. With this speed of learning, adding our techniques to your own should be easy for you.
I thank you for all your posts, you have certainly woken things up around here and addressed some subjects that have been taboo.
In answer to your question/statement, I think that you are right in that there is no fundamental difference between your tool and ours.
I accept your suggestion of saying T-bar hammer as opposed to T-hammer as a differenciation between the two tools.
What concerns us is its use.
In order to tell the differences in its use, we would encourage you to make clean unisons as demonstrated in the Japanese video and then see how long those unisons stay clean, (still)(not wavering) even through heavy playing. This is how we assess (judge) this aspect of a good tuning from a bad one.
I am not judging your style of unison, that is between you and your customers, but practice this stillness. The act of achieving that stillness is also good for the mind.
I am not telling you that you are wrong, if any of us made a video of our own tuning technique we might just be more than a little bit embarrased. Sometimes, what is apparent in a video does not necessarily show what is being felt in the tuners hands.
With what you have shown us so far, we (I) don't find it possible to assess the differences that you tell us may not be there.
I refer you back to 'unright tuner' where he asks you to tell us what you have learned so far and of your understanding of 'flagpoling'.

 

rxd

I just finished a tour of the 60 or so practice pianos in my care.
I only found one unison worth getting my tools out for and a bit of long steel drift here and there.
I only mention this because the heat has been switched on a few days ago and I was dreading this morning and considering that I took the risk of using nothing but a T-hammer for the corrections an my last go-round.
(I did the concert instuments yesterday, so they don't count).
Oh, and I found myself saying 'Darling' and 'sweetheart' to them as they were behaving so well.
Does anybody else talk to their pianos so lovingly?
I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop.

 

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: rxd

With what you have shown us so far, we (I) don't find it possible to assess the differences that you tell us may not be there.
I refer you back to 'unright tuner' where he asks you to tell us what you have learned so far and of your understanding of 'flagpoling'.

Dear rXd, I have carefully reads and analyze your words. These are the words Master and I feel in them the support and care. I am always ready for dialogue. I am already absorb correct critic in my address. My path is the path of trial and error. Fate compels to try out new techniques and equipment to achieve the goal. I agree with you that any equipment even made it homemade, it is to be used . As I said before my method is it due to lack of funds for the purchase and operation of the factory hammer. My clients are asked to provide a service and I can not refuse them.
'flagpoled' I do not really understand what it is? If you can please explain.
I learn all that techs of piano writes . I don't want to specify that already received some advice. I would not want someone to hurt my neglect of the techs our forum. If I understand correctly what is written about my method of tuning a piano's tech, it should be noted, I rotate pin in a clockwise direction, and not wildebeest it . Sincerely, maxim_tuner (bodger frome KZ)

 

BDB

When you turn a tuning pin, all the force should be rotating it. It should not bend it forward or backward or the side. Bending it that way is what they are calling "flagpoling," because it bends like a flagpole in the wind.

 

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: BDB

Bending it that way is what they are calling "flagpoling," because it bends like a flagpole in the wind.

Dear BDB , If I understand you correctly, then the concept to my method of rotation of pin is not suitable (means "flagpoling". I have need tuning very old upright piano. Handle my T-bar allows you to rotate the two hands simultaneously. Application of force evenly throughout the pin. Thus I care about the pin and pinblock. I keep care about tight contact (pin - wood hole - pinblock)

 

rxd

Max. (Bodger from Kz)
BDB gave a good description of flagpoling.
I like your term 'wildebeest' the pin. It brings to my imagination exactly what we mean. The English (Uk) words wrestplank (pinblock) and wrestpin (tuning pin) come from the same root as the word wrestle, a style of fighting. To wildebeest the pins might just enter the language of technicians over all the world.
The general opinion from your video is that it looks to us that you wildebeest the pin more than we would be comfortable with. Your first step, if you wish to add our techniques to your own, is to simply turn (rotate) the pin with no other motion up or down or sideways (on an upright).
This takes some skill and strength with the tool you are using. if you have the T bar in a central position like our T hammer, as Jeff suggested, it would help acheive our goal.
I have spent the last week using my T hammer as much as I can so it is not impossible except for the very tightest tuning pins. I have previous experience with a T hammer so that helps. A tuning lever would take less strength but it is not as easy as with a T hammer or T bar hammer to feel the exact ammount of unintentional flagpoling.
May I repeat?, we would like to hear some still unisons played from the keyboard of the piano This is the simplest way to check the effectiveness of the technique that you are using.
The object is to tune a piano to a very fine degree and for it to stay in tune at that fine degree as long as possible.

Mark R.

Max,
1) To explain the term "flagpoling"
Look at your video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gQ-ZInLsF4
You are bending the tuning pin down at 1:03 - 1:06. When you release the T-bar at 1:07, you can see the pin return upwards.
At 1:13 you bend the pin down, at 1:15 it returns upwards.
At 1:42 you bend the pin down, at 1:45 it returns upwards.
Then, at 1:47 you bend the pin up, at 1:49 it returns downwards.
Again 1:57 (bend up), 1:58 (returns down), 2:01 (bend up), 2:02 (bend down).
2) To explain "beatless" (still, clean, in tune)
At 2:35 one can hear that the A4 is still not tuned. The note has a "eeeeaaaaaoooouuuu" sound. This is a phase change. The three strings are not tuned beatless.
At 3:43, the F# is not beatless.
At 4:16 (and 6:28), the A4 is still not beatless.
At 5:09, the D5 is still not quite beatless.
At 6:32, the G4 is not beatless.
At 6:43, the C4 is beating quite strongly strongly.
3) To explain why it is necessary to play the note with the piano's hammer
Unright Tooner explained this well:
Quote:For both strings to sound in phase (sound “beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time. A plectrum will not do this, but the piano’s hammer will.

 

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: Mark R.

At 5:09, the D5 is still not quite beatless.

THANK Mark,You made the timing of my videos. Mark's Timing is a tutorial for young novice tuner. I am your debtor. Thanks again

 

Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd

I like your term 'wildebeest' the pin. To wildebeest the pins might just enter the language of technicians over all the world.
May I repeat?, we would like to hear some still unisons played from the keyboard of the piano This is the simplest way to check the effectiveness of the technique that you are using.

My dear rxd,From now on, throughout the international practice of piano technicians only 'wildebeest'
Video of my art tuning path with T-bar I shall promise to show, but later. I do not have a digital camera now
maxim_tuner_bodger_from_KZ

 

DoelKees

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

For both strings to sound in phase (sound “beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time.

Why? If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.
Kees

 

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

they also need to be struck at the same time.

Why? If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.Kees

If I understood Kees correctly, we need a plectrum to pluck at the same time 2 or 3 strings. And find the differents between its. That's the theory. The human ear can discern and eliminate inaccuracies, if this sounds small delay
maxim_tuner_bodger

 

JohnSprung

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.

True, but out of phase at the same frequency causes cancellation and reduces the sound output. Probably not important, though, since it's beats you're listening for.
The cause of beats is that a slight difference in frequencies makes them go back and forth between adding and cancellation.

 

UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

For both strings to sound in phase (sound “beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time.

Why? If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.
Kees

True, there would be no beats IF you could get them to the exact same frequency. But it is difficult to get that last 1/4 or ½ cent. When they are struck at the same time and are in phase, then they couple even though separately they are not quite at the same frequency. There is a "tsiinnggg" sound at the attack that can be heard. And I have heard some recordings where, I believe, the unisons were tuned to just barely couple. It can make the melody really stand out.
This can be observed when a hammer is not well mated to the strings. It is much harder, or impossible, to get a good unison and it will go out quicker. This coupling is also why false beats can often be reduced or eliminated with careful unison tuning. That is what I believe, anyway.
[Edit:] This may also be why unisons are not tuned with ETDs. I don't know how a machine could recognise and guide the tuning of coupled strings.

 

rxd

Wasn't there an article on this in Scientific American in '70's?
This is also the reason I check for noisy note termination(dampers) with the shift pedal down. If they're gonna b noisy at all, that's when they're at their most noticeable.

 

pianolive
"True, there would be no beats IF you could get them to the exact same frequency"
But if strings have false beats, you often tune the three strings at different freq. to get the chore beatless.
In older Steinway O grands the speaking lenghts of the last wounded strings at the break, can differ quite much from 6 - 11 mm in one chore. If those strings are tuned at the same freq. the do beat terrible. They must be tuned at different freq, which we automatically do when tuning aurally. When checked with a program it becomes clear that they are at different freq. but beatless together.
I guess it is the same in other instruments too.

 

DoelKees

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

For both strings to sound in phase (sound “beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time.

Why? If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.
Kees

True, there would be no beats IF you could get them to the exact same frequency. But it is difficult to get that last 1/4 or ½ cent. When they are struck at the same time and are in phase, then they couple even though separately they are not quite at the same frequency.

This could also be used as an argument for tuning with a plectrum. If the strings are not at the exact same frequency but you rely on the coupling to pull them in tune, a small change in tension will take them out of the coupling range and you'll have an off unison.
However if you tuned them more accurately to the same freq. by plucking them, the unison would be even better with the hammer due to the string coupling, and more stable (as you have more "wiggling room").
Finally when plucking, you can more easily excite the higher harmonics, leading to higher accuracy. First because the nature of the plucking excitation causes a more bright sound even when done at the same location as the hammer, second because you can pluck closer to the termination to get the higher harmonics.
I would think the reasons not to pluck are 1) it is too time consuming and 2) if the strings in the unison do not quite match you have to go for the "best sound" which you can get only by listening to how it actually sounds with the hammer.
Kees

 

UnrightTooner
Doel:
I always enjoy your objective outlook. Truly!
I have zero ETD experience. If they were appropriate for unison tuning, it would either be recommended to do so or tuners would anyway.
And I am not so sure that higher harmonics lead to higher accuracy. The higher the partial the more affected by iH. And if there is a slight difference in iH the difference will be greater with higher partials.

 

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

Originally Posted By: DoelKees

[quote=UnrightTooner]For both strings to sound in phase (sound “beatless”) they also need to be struck at the same time.

Why? If they are out of phase but at the same frequency there will be no beats.Kees

Finally when plucking, you can more easily excite the higher harmonics, leading to higher accuracy. First because the nature of the plucking excitation causes a more bright sound even when done at the same location as the hammer, second because you can pluck closer to the termination to get the higher harmonics.
I would think the reasons not to pluck are 1) it is too time consuming and 2) if the strings in the unison do not quite match you have to go for the "best sound" which you can get only by listening to how it actually sounds with the hammer.Kees

BRAVO, Kees!

 

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: pianolive

the speaking lenghts of the last wounded strings at the break, can differ quite much from 6 - 11 mm in one chore. If those strings are tuned at the same freq. the do beat terrible. They must be tuned at different freq, which we automatically do when tuning aurally.

think that's debatable. I do not have such a practice

 

Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: rxd

Wasn't there an article on this in Scientific American in '70's?

that article about?

 

rxd

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Originally Posted By: rxd

Wasn't there an article on this in Scientific American in '70's?

that article about?

About coupling of strings and behaviour of 3rd string through the bridge when only 2 of 3 Strings Is struck, As in operating the shift(left) pedal in a grand.
I think I saw it copied on the web. Does anybody have a link?

 

UnrightTooner

I cannot find the Scientific American article on the web, but here is a link that mentions it in regards to the coupling of strings:
http://flux.aps.org/meetings/YR97/BAPSTSS97/abs/S1010002.html

 

Maximillyan
Thank,Jeff Deutschle

 

UnrightTooner
Ugh,
Now I remember how this subject is treated in an ugly way:
http://www.speech.kth.se/music/5_lectures/weinreic/weinreic.html

 

Maximillyan

Dear piano's technicks, I today rescued a piano "Belarus" 1959. This is a piano never no one ever tuning up. Maxim worked during the day . Originally a piano played terrible! I think that the tuning took place. I look forward to your constructive criticism tuning piano with plectrum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzL2yAOOAuQ

 

DoelKees

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

I have zero ETD experience. If they were appropriate for unison tuning, it would either be recommended to do so or tuners would anyway.

OK, but we discuss plucking here, not ETD's. I agree with you, it's just a matter of knowing why.

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner

And I am not so sure that higher harmonics lead to higher accuracy. The higher the partial the more affected by iH. And if there is a slight difference in iH the difference will be greater with higher partials.

True.
Kees

 

DoelKees

I tried tuning a couple of unisons today with the plucking method. Once I get the fast beats out by plucking close to the termination (i.e., the higher harmonics rapid beats are now too slow to detect), the unison is perfect when played with hammer. When tuning the same unison with the hammer, after getting it aurally equally perfect I could then detect a small beat in the higher harmonics when plucking. When correcting this using plucking and going back to using the hammer it sounded the same. But I think it should theoretically then be more stable.
I cherry picked the unisons for well matched strings. When I tried on a unison with some problems, the resulting unison from plucking depended on where I'd pluck and never sounded as good as when I tuned with the hammer (the piano hammer, not the tuning hammer), for obvious reasons.
I think this is all as expected, and I'm happy now that I understand what's going on.
It seems with this plucking technique you should be prepared to spend 6 hours on a tuning, as it will not work on less than perfectly matched strings, so you have to go through the plucking stage, then strike with the hammers, decide which strings have a problem etc.
A somewhat related factoid: I play a lot with santur players. A santur (also called dulcimer) is like a piano without action lying on the table and you hit the strings (3 per unison) with mallets you hold in your hand. Every santur player I know tunes by plucking the strings. It need to be (and is by the pro's) tuned about every 15 mins.
Kees

 

rxd

Originally Posted By: Maximillyan

Dear piano's technicks, I today rescued a piano "Belarus" 1959. This is a piano never no one ever tuning up. Maxim worked during the day . Originally a piano played terrible! I think that the tuning took place. I look forward to your constructive criticism tuning piano with plectrum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzL2yAOOAuQ

Thank you, Max for this video. It shows how well that you are adding our suggestions to your own technique. It looks as though that piano has pins just a little too tight to turn with one hand. You have stopped flagpoling the pin and your unisons are much cleaner.
I noticed you turn the pin some times with the tool in L shape (not T) with no flagpoling that as a good skill to have and will enable you to turn the pin and tune finer without changing tools or using both hands. This is just a suggestion that may help you todevelop a more efficient technique with the tools you have.
I am impressed by how you can estimate quite accurately how much to turn the pin with both hands and no notes sounding. With this skill, it is possible for you to get the string close to in tune and then refine the tuning with one hand while playing the note from the key with the other.
You can stop the strings that you don't need to hear with wedges made from soft material like felt or rubber so that you only have two strings sounding at one time. You saw this in the Japanese video.
You will find this quicker because plucking the strings takes more time and would take 3 hands to do efficiently. That is the reason I don't take time to pluck strings.
There is a discussion in this thread that points out some of the possible advantages of plucking. I will certainly try it next time I tune a piano and have time.
Thank you for making us all think about what we are doing.
Is that your family in the background? They look very happy.

 

UnrightTooner

Max:
You will get many different perspectives from us. Mine is just one of many.
I do not see the flagpoling by itself being a problem to tuning. I see the EFFECTS of flagpoling on the PITCH, while the flagpoling is occurring, as the problem. There are problems with flagpoling that are separate from tuning, though.
If you were tuning in the typical way, the pitch change due to flagpoling would be a problem. The typical way is to play the note and tune one untuned string to other tuned strings. (Mutes are needed to do this.) While the note is being played, the pin is turned until the interval between the notes is correct. (The interval may be a unison, octave, fifth, etc.)
If there is a large amount of flagpoling in the direction of the string, then when the tuning hammer is no longer being turned, the pitch will change. The usual way to deal with flagpoling is to put the tuning hammer in line with the string. Then the flagpoling will not affect the pitch because the flagpoling is in the direction of across the string, not in line with the string.
Since you are plucking a string, turning the pin, and then checking the result, I do not see the flagpoling as a problem in tuning. The effect of flagpoling on the change of pitch no longer exists when the note is checked. The real problem is tuning mostly by listening to pitch, rather than by listening to intervals. Listening to intervals is the typical way to tune.
However, there is problem with flagpoling that has nothing to do with tuning. Flagpoling puts sideways pressure on the hole in the pinblock. It is good that you are now using a technique that reduces this flagpoling. A typical tuning hammer reduces flagpoling by having the head of the hammer closer to the pin. Maybe you can modify one of your tools to work more like a typical tuning hammer. Then you could try tuning intervals rather than by mostly listening to separate pitches. You will need mutes to do this. A wedge of rubber would be like a typical mute.

 

Maximillyan



 

Originally Posted By: DoelKees
When tuning the same unison with the hammer, after getting it aurally equally perfect I could then detect a small beat in the higher harmonics when plucking. When correcting this using plucking and going back to using the hammer it sounded the same. But I think it should theoretically then be more stable. I think this is all as expected, and I'm happy now that I understand what's going on.
Dear Kees, you really understand correctly that the harmonic sounds are different from each other. This is not just a theory, but practice. I first create a sound pick, and then check the usual playback using the keyboard. So that I created the sound in practice no different from the sound which was created by mute way. I am glad to know that you are actively practicing the method of plucking. There is one huge disadvantage - a lot of time spent on tuning sound and it analysis. However, this is offset by careful attitude to the mechanisms; (pin- pin’s hole- pinblock). Stability and durability of this method is undeniable
Respect you from maxim_tuner_bodger
 
Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Since you are plucking a string, turning the pin, and then checking the result, I do not see the flagpoling as a problem in tuning. The effect of flagpoling on the change of pitch no longer exists when the note is checked. The real problem is tuning mostly by listening to pitch, rather than by listening to intervals. Listening to intervals is the typical way to tune.
Maybe you can modify one of your tools to work more like a typical tuning hammer. Then you could try tuning intervals rather than by mostly listening to separate pitches. You will need mutes to do this. A wedge of rubber would be like a typical mute.
Dear Jeff, the entire analysis of my way tuning and most importantly all your recommendations are correct and I think that they will help me in my job. I understood you and I be sure to make SUCH hammer!
Regards maxim_tuner_bodger
 
Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Dear piano's technicks, I today rescued a piano "Belarus" 1959. This is a piano never no one ever tuning up. Maxim worked during the day . Originally a piano played terrible! I think that the tuning took place. I look forward to your constructive criticism tuning piano with plectrum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzL2yAOOAuQ
Thank you, Max for this video. It shows how well that you are adding our suggestions to your own technique. It looks as though that piano has pins just a little too tight to turn with one hand. You have stopped flagpoling the pin and your unisons are much cleaner.
THANKS
I noticed you turn the pin some times with the tool in L shape (not T) with no flagpoling that as a good skill to have and will enable you to turn the pin and tune finer without changing tools or using both hands. This is just a suggestion that may help you todevelop a more efficient technique with the tools you have.
I am impressed by how you can estimate quite accurately how much to turn the pin with both hands and no notes sounding. With this skill, it is possible for you to get the string close to in tune and then refine the tuning with one hand while playing the note from the key with the other.
You can stop the strings that you don't need to hear with wedges made from soft material like felt or rubber so that you only have two strings sounding at one time. You saw this in the Japanese video.
You will find this quicker because plucking the strings takes more time and would take 3 hands to do efficiently. That is the reason I don't take time to pluck strings.
There is a discussion in this thread that points out some of the possible advantages of plucking. I will certainly try it next time I tune a piano and have time.
Thank you for making us all think about what we are doing.
Is that your family in the background? They look very happy.

The technique of L and T, I intentionally included to show the versatility of my key. I'm can work both left and right hand the same way, for me it makes no difference.
My extensive experience allows me to turning the pin originally without sound. When I find sharp tone and I am fix it's.
Your wishes with wedges (Japanese video) are taken into account.
If you look closely, in my various video: here different people, women and children. I am not a polygamist, it's my customers. They are happy that I came. Their desire is to get as a result of my visit, well-tuned up piano
sincerely yours maxim_tuner_bodger
 
rxd
I can see how string tunes differently by plucking. Whenever I completely revoice a piano it seems to want to tune slightly differently than before any changes.
I never do retune, not for any artistic reasons but because the changes are so slight as to not warrant it. Or am I merely justifying my laziness? I also have a taste for benign neglect.
Anyway, when we get to fine tuning it might by an issue and it might not.
I'm about to listen to some Beethoven, Schumann & Liszt on a 1914 Chapell 9' grand that I just tuned with a T hammer. The pianists love it. It had been sounding a little 'quaint' here and there at higher dynamic levels, depending on who was playing it. Some back of the hammer needling has taken all that away and it is an amazing piano now.
 
Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
I'm about to listen to some Beethoven, Schumann & Liszt on a 1914 Chapell 9' grand that I just tuned with a T hammer. The pianists love it. It had been sounding a little 'quaint' here and there at higher dynamic levels, depending on who was playing it. Some back of the hammer needling has taken all that away and it is an amazing piano now.
Dear rxd, I am Very pleased! I'd love to hear and see a little piece of video. Discussion pianists about this a piano and tuning now, if possible.
sincerely yours,maxim_tuner_bodger
 
pianolive
Please correct me if I misunderstand, but are you guys talking about tuning pianos by plucking the strings?
First set temp and then tune the rest of the instrument by plucking?
 
rxd
Originally Posted By: pianolive
Please correct me if I misunderstand, but are you guys talking about tuning pianos by plucking the strings?
First set temp and then tune the rest of the instrument by plucking?
Yes, but go back to the beginning of this thread to see how it morphed that way.
 
Dan Casdorph
Maximillyan:
How long does it take you to tune a piano?
Dan
 
Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Dan Casdorph
How long does it take you to tune a piano

Dan,If the piano is in good technical condition ( tight pin- pin's hole- pinblock ) then I shall tuning more than 5 hours, new 7-9 h
 
BDB
I schedule between one and two hours for most tunings.
 
Monaco
I'm a beginner and it takes me less than 2 hours to tune, plus a little for the set up, adjustments, inspection etc.
 
 Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Monaco
I'm a beginner and it takes me less than 2 hours to tune,
"No bad cats. There are cooks who do not know how cook it's". Chinese folk wisdom
 
 DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Dan Casdorph
How long does it take you to tune a piano
Dan,If the piano is in good technical condition ( tight pin- pin's hole- pinblock ) then I shall tuning more than 5 hours, new 7-9 h
It took me about 4 mins to tune a single 3 string unison with the plucking method. Times 88 that's about the time you mention, taking into accounts not all notes have 3 strings but you also have to set a temperament.
Using either a muting strip or rubber dampers you can cut this time down to 1-2 hrs.
How do you set the temperament (make sure all intervals are equal)?
Kees
  
Mark R.

Kees,
You can see in the videos that Max's "temperament" (if one can call it that?!) is based on 4ths, 5ths and octaves, using major triads as auxiliary notes (marked in red below).
e.g.
A4 --> E4 (playing C#4,E4,A4)
A4 --> D5 (playing F#4,A4,D5)
D5 --> D4 (octave, or playing D major)
D4 --> G4 (playing B3,D4,G4)
etc. etc.
My problem in calling this a "temperament" is that these auxiliary notes are not even tuned yet! Given this, I'm surprised at some of the results he does get.
Monaco,
Not that I'm keen on "fast and furious", but do you perhaps have a recording of one of your tunings that you did in less than two hours? I'm a beginner too, and although I might manage a pitch raise in less than two hours, a fine tuning definitely takes me longer.

 
Dan Casdorph
The reason I asked about time is because there was once a beginning tuner here who I saw doing a floor tuning in a store. I stood back and watched/listened for a few minutes and I found his methods curious.

He played the key and used mutes to tune using a traditional tuning lever. However, he did not play while he was tuning the string.He tuned silently. He would work his tuning lever, then play the note and listen. If the note/unison was off, he would either raise or lower the string silently, then play the note. He would then decide whether to raise or lower the pitch depending on whether the beats were getting better or worse.
I watched for about 10 minutes in total confusion as he struggled to tune a couple of unisons in the treble.
He never was able to get his tuning time under 4-5 hours and he quit tuning.
 
Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Mark R.

Kees,
You can see in the videos that Max's "temperament" (if one can call it that?!) is based on 4ths, 5ths and octaves, using major triads as auxiliary notes (marked in red below).
e.g.
A4 --> E4 (playing C#4,E4,A4)
A4 --> D5 (playing F#4,A4,D5)
D5 --> D4 (octave, or playing D major)
D4 --> G4 (playing B3,D4,G4)

Dear Mark I did not set to show in your videos are absolutely accurate (final) fixation of sounds. Customers shoot me in the process of temperament. With regard to major triads you just said. This is just search sound one of my original methods . Now I shall looking for a broken piano to the online mode to configure it for an extended period of time

 
Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Dan Casdorph
How long does it take you to tune a piano
Dan,If the piano is in good technical condition ( tight pin- pin's hole- pinblock ) then I shall tuning more than 5 hours, new 7-9 h
you can cut this time down to 1-2 hrs.How do you set the temperament (make sure all intervals are equal)?Kees
Thanks Kees,but I think the rush is not necessary, to avoid errors and the quality was not affected
 
BDB
It is not necessarily the case that taking more time results in better tuning. Usually those who take longer get the worst results.
For concerts, I often have only one hour to tune the piano. That includes replacing strings I might break. If I run over, the audience has to wait until I finish. Most of the time, the piano is fairly well in tune beforehand, but I never can tell how the weather has affected the piano until I start tuning.
 
dancarney
I can 'chip' a piano in around 50/55 mins, which can then be fine tuned in around 30 mins, give or take.
It takes practise, however. I hope I can improve on the above time, just for kicks.
Kees, you'll be able to improve your time quite easily by practising.
I don't intend to craft a career from chipping, but it is a fairly efficient way of raising/levelling pitch.
 
rxd
Originally Posted By: BDB
For concerts, I often have only one hour to tune the piano. That includes replacing strings I might break.
One hour is quite standard for a concert tuning.
How old are these concert pianos that are breaking strings?
Or are you an unusually heavy handed tuner?
 
Monaco
Mark,
Do you use an ETD?
 
BDB
The newest piano is 5 years old. I am not the only one who breaks strings on it. That is about par for heavily used concert pianos.
 
Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: BDB
For concerts, I often have only one hour to tune the piano. That includes replacing strings I might break.
an unusually heavy handed tuner?
I am HARD tuner
 
Monaco
Does tuning with a plectrum provide enough inertia to the string to allow it to equalize over it's pressure points? I doubt it. Unless you pluck the HECK out of it, then maybe.
What makes one a heavy handed tuner? The strength of his blows or the amount that one raises pitch above the desired frequency? Is it at all likely that you could brake a string by smacking the key? My initial thought is that if there is such a thing as a heavy handed tuner it must be the latter.
 
Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Monaco
if there is such a thing as a heavy handed tuner it must be the latter.
Hard fixation of pin as soon as possible, without re-return. But in practice I can not boast that it is happening at once and not have to go back to adjust the sound
 
BDB
Well, I do not know about braking a string by smacking the key, but I certainly can break a string that way. I am pleased that in my career, I have broken a lot more strings than the artists have
 
Monaco
And these strings broke while sounding the note or turning the pin?
 
JohnSprung
Originally Posted By: BDB
The newest piano is 5 years old. I am not the only one who breaks strings on it. That is about par for heavily used concert pianos.
Do you keep a supply of the wrapped bass strings? Or is it mostly the plain wire ones that break?
 
BDB
It is mostly the plain wire strings in the top section that break. Universal strings are not long enough for more than 7' grands, so I am glad that they do not break so often.
They break when I am sounding the note, always at the capo bar. That is where the fatigue is.
 
rxd
Originally Posted By: BDB
Well, I do not know about braking a string by smacking the key, but I certainly can break a string that way. I am pleased that in my career, I have broken a lot more strings than the artists have.
I am entertaining the distinct possibility that you are kidding us.
You have given us so many intelligent insights, I find it hard to believe that you would fall into this trap.
 
BDB
It is better to break a string before the show than to have it break in the middle of the show.
 
rxd
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: BDB
It is better to break a string before the show than to have it break in the middle of the show.
is it?
 
BDB
From the audience's point of view, certainly. Especially if there is nobody there to fix it. I am tuning and leaving for tonight's show.
 
rxd
Originally Posted By: BDB
From the audience's point of view, certainly. Especially if there is nobody there to fix it. I am tuning and leaving for tonight's show.
It's just that I have some pianos whose stringing is a bit old for concert work plus some really vulgar "Artists" and I don't have that problem. I don't break strings, nor do they.
Perhaps it's being close to the Bay
How do you deal with unstable new strings if you're not there?
 
BDB
Most of the pianos where I am the sole tuner do not have problems with breaking strings. One of them, the one I am tuning Wednesday, did, but it seems to have stabilized in recent years and does not break them as much. But none of them get as much playing as the concert reserve instruments, which are played often and hard. The person in charge of the pianos at Stanford University, where I have never tuned, told me that they have their concert grands restrung every 10 years.
Most of the instability of new strings comes from installing them incorrectly. If everything is tightened up at installation, the only thing left is stretching, and that is slow enough that it will not be noticeable for many hours, particularly since these are very high notes.
 
DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Thanks Kees,but I think the rush is not necessary, to avoid errors and the quality was not affected
The point is you can get the same results in 1/4 of the time.
Regarding the video you posted, you tuned the piano 30 cents flat (relative to A=440). Can you explain why you did that?
Cheers,
Kees
 
Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
[quote=Maximillyan]
Regarding the video you posted, you tuned the piano 30 cents flat (relative to A=440). Can you explain why you did that?
Cheers,
Kees
Dear Kees , are you sure you correctly identified the general system the piano on my video. Why so? I usually have settings piano's practice where resources are partially or completely exhausted itself. In the video, "Belarus" in 1959. Its no one ever tuning up. After removing the dust and removing small defects the hammer's mechanism, I checked the digital tuning system. I have found that 75% below the standard sounds more than a semitone. (In the beginning of the video I play a 4-octave section). Some notes are all the same is true for near 30sen below. I decided to do temperament the basis of these sounds. I know that when picked up by building more halftones can break string. I am unable to buy new strings.Nobody it sale in our town. So, what I'm doing rather is technical routine operation, but the "art of resurrection from obscurity".
Sincerely,maxim_tuner_bodger
 
Maximillyan
Today I'm shot clip about T-bar. Sorry, I does not speak conversational English. I hope that the chronicle will be available in the understanding of the benefits Universal T-bar .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6K125i_WBqw
Sincerely, maxim_tuner_bodger
 
Mark R.
Originally Posted By: Monaco
Mark,
Do you use an ETD?
Depends what for. I don't even own an ETD, but have borrowed a friend's chromatic tuner sometimes, to evaluate exactly how flat a piano is before and after a pitch raise. As a beginner, I'm still very careful with overpull. I rather pull up to A440 in several passes.
But my actual tuning is by ear only. The ETD was only for measuring "before and after", to learn about the effects of a pitch raise.
Why do you ask?
 
Monaco
Because an ETD will speed up your times tremendously, especially for pitch raises. Most (all?) good ETD's will calculate the amount of overpull needed so you only have to do one quick pass where you just get the note close. Then you are ready to do a final tuning on the next pass. I can easily do a pitch raise in 40 minutes, sometimes a little less. I have heard of people who can do it in 20.
I am sure that if I was to try to tune strictly by ear, as you do, my times would be much more in line with yours. On the other hand, if you use an ETD, I would bet that your times would be much more in line with min. Also, I can guarantee that my work, if not dead on, is very close to being correct (assuming I can set a pin and tune solid unisons - both of which are getting better all the time - one of the reasons I consider myself a "beginner").
If money is a serious consideration, as it was for me, I suggest Tunelabs. It's $300 and goes on (almost?) any iOS device. I purchased a used iTouch off ebay for $140. Total = $440 as opposed to some of the other options that can be as much as $1400. Plus, now I have an iTouch, which is nice.
 
Mark R.
Thanks, Ben.
Pin-setting and unisons are exactly what takes time for me - I'm not sure how much time an ETD would save me there.
In fact, I don't even know what "iOS" stands for... My mobile is for making calls and sending short messages - but I'll keep these things in mind.
 
Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Monaco
I can easily do a pitch raise in 40 minutes, sometimes a little less. I have heard of people who can do it in 20.
I'm sorry friends, but I think the main success and basic instructions to tuning the use ear's of audition. The digital tuner is an aid Tuner. If the tuner can not hear a clean 8, 4 and 5 , it is impossible to talk about temperament. Deadline temperament to be as long as necessary to configure each individual piano
Regards for your forum. maxim_tuner_bodger
 
Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
This guy cannot tune, and more importantly .... is in serious danger of snapping wrestpins the way he flagpoles them with his T bar socket set "tuning hammer" !
The time will judge us
maxim_tuner_bodger
 
UnrightTooner
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: Johnkie
This guy cannot tune, and more importantly .... is in serious danger of snapping wrestpins the way he flagpoles them with his T bar socket set "tuning hammer" !
The time will judge us
maxim_tuner_bodger

Max:
I no longer think that better equipment will help you. I think that you are “A Legend in Your Own Mind.” It is good that you satisfy your customers, but I no longer think that we can help you.
 

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